Obama Or Mccain?

[SuburbanSmoker]

I completely agree that we should leave iraq in a better state then when we got there. just seems like its not going to happen. iraq is a quagmire...always has been. Dont know if there is much the U.S can do to make it a "democracy".

[boulderkid303]

Which is why we shouldn't even be there now. It was stupid to even go in. Last I checked Obama was the only senator to step up tp bush and say NO we should not be invading with no behalf.

I completely agree that we should leave iraq in a better state then when we got there. just seems like its not going to happen. iraq is a quagmire...always has been. Dont know if there is much the U.S can do to make it a "democracy".

[Hookah_Bob3]

Iraq already is a better place than when we got there. The Iraqis hailed the day when Saddam was found and when he was executed. They're beginning to support our troops by identifying Al Qaeda hide outs. The media just doesn't tell you because that doesn't serve their agenda.

[Dr. Atkins]

Iraq already is a better place than when we got there. The Iraqis hailed the day when Saddam was found and when he was executed. They're beginning to support our troops by identifying Al Qaeda hide outs. The media just doesn't tell you because that doesn't serve their agenda.

What? This is pretty much EXACTLY what the media tells you, even the channels that aren't basically tabloids (Fox).

[TheScotsman]

Iraq already is a better place than when we got there. The Iraqis hailed the day when Saddam was found and when he was executed. They're beginning to support our troops by identifying Al Qaeda hide outs. The media just doesn't tell you because that doesn't serve their agenda.

What? This is pretty much EXACTLY what the media tells you, even the channels that aren't basically tabloids (Fox).

And the liberal wacco-nutballs try to say that is not true.
Almost any returning G.I. will backup what the news is telling us.
Liberalism is a mental disorder.

[Bulldog_916]

My question is how many more families do you want to lose their loved one for a war that had no good reasoning in the first place? Just because its going well doesnt mean you can go up to one of the relatives of the war dead and say "hey it was for a good cause." Fuck that. Almost 4150 families now have to live with that burden. There are still bombs going off. There are still troops getting shot. This isnt a war, it's an occupation to keep a vacuum from forming. The Iraqi government is about as irresponsible as the current Bush administration, showing their obvious slant toward incompetence. Now that the oil pipelines are starting to pump oil again, Libya is going to back off their production, leaving it in the hands of Iraq to provide their share at the risk it gets shut down due to violence in the region, skyrocketing oil even further. The only reason we had a relative calm in violence after the surge was that Al Sadr called a ceasefire. Now that ceasefire is over and the deaths continue to pile up.

It's only a matter of time before terrorists strike in the US again. We arent safer, we just have fewer rights and more agents looking at us with their surveillance equipment. I dont long for the day that some airport worker gets to look at my dong as I go through the scanners unless by some miracle it's a hot chick. We have a wide open border, you might as well invite the terrorists in with a big banner saying "Welcome to America, Attack as You Please." This wont change under Obama or McCain, but I'd rather see how Obama handles it than McSame.

[AKammenzind]

Anyways, good luck with your election. I'll be watching it from up north, where I am able to enjoy free healthcare

Your healthcare isn't free, it's paid for with high taxes, which are enforced by the people who run your lives.

But yes, American politics FTL. Our government blows (don't they all), and I'm sick of hearing about how 'it could be worse' when we all know it could be a hell of a lot better. It won't get better though, because the people in charge like things just the way they are.

Cheers

[boulderkid303]

um no.

Iraq already is a better place than when we got there. The Iraqis hailed the day when Saddam was found and when he was executed. They're beginning to support our troops by identifying Al Qaeda hide outs. The media just doesn't tell you because that doesn't serve their agenda.

[ilikemyusername]

quote me on this.
the last two elections were rigged.
this one will be too.
we will not see a democrat in office for at least another 8 years.
however:
McCain is going to kill us all.
quote me on that.
if not literally, wich i think will be the case, then he's going to help further crumble our economy.
shambles, the once great united states of america, by that i mean around 30+ years ago, will crumble under its own thirst for war.
bloodshed.
quote me on that.
the senate and the house of representatives are the ones behind it all.
McCain won't know when to say no.
quote me on that.

[Hookah_Bob3]

quote me on this.
the last two elections were rigged.
this one will be too.
we will not see a democrat in office for at least another 8 years.
however:
McCain is going to kill us all.
quote me on that.
if not literally, wich i think will be the case, then he's going to help further crumble our economy.
shambles, the once great united states of america, by that i mean around 30+ years ago, will crumble under its own thirst for war.
bloodshed.
quote me on that.
the senate and the house of representatives are the ones behind it all.
McCain won't know when to say no.
quote me on that.

Duly quoted

[SuburbanSmoker]

If the us crumbles, it wont be because of thirst for war...it will be for thirst of GREED. And we are in a period of party re-alignment where the masses are voting overwhelmingly democrat. It all depends on how the war turns closer to the time of the election.

In terms of the elections being rigged, well thats a horrible thought to have. but then again you do live here so you have chosen that the states are a better place to live then else where and accept the possiblity that something that corrupt could be taking place in government.

i beieve congress is majority democrats...so even if a republican does get elected mccain wont ahve the majority to pass legislation on his own programs.

just my .02

-Subz

[Brownman18]

if obama wins kiss your guns goodbye people

McCain FTW !!!!!!

LOL

if Mccain wins kiss your guns goodbye people!

Wonderful selection isnt it ?


we had John kerry as a D and Bush as a R and they were cousins too, now we have Obama as a D and Mccain as an R but Mccain is bush supreme? so hes taking your guns too fool.

And Obama is half white and half black but hes also Family to Cheney and bush as well through a distant link.


So in case you haven't grasped the concept your guns are going to be gone either way.

IT WOULD BE INTELLIGENT to purchase one for your first amendment right today while you still can. (since thats really the only section of the constitution they have left in place anyway)
Edited June 30, 2008 by Brownman18

[liquidglass]

if obama wins kiss your guns goodbye people

McCain FTW !!!!!!

LOL

if Mccain wins kiss your guns goodbye people!

Wonderful selection isnt it ?


we had John kerry as a D and Bush as a R and they were cousins too, now we have Obama as a D and Mccain as an R but Mccain is bush supreme? so hes taking your guns too fool.

And Obama is half white and half black but hes also Family to Cheney and bush as well through a distant link.


So in case you haven't grasped the concept your guns are going to be gone either way.

IT WOULD BE INTELLIGENT to purchase one for your first amendment right today while you still can. (since thats really the only section of the constitution they have left in place anyway)

Firstly, everyone is related by some link or another, most of it depends on how far you want to go back genealogically.

Second. FIRST amendment? Dude you have to be kidding me. If you want your opinion respected, know what you're talking about.

[Brownman18]

if obama wins kiss your guns goodbye people

McCain FTW !!!!!!

LOL

if Mccain wins kiss your guns goodbye people!

Wonderful selection isnt it ?


we had John kerry as a D and Bush as a R and they were cousins too, now we have Obama as a D and Mccain as an R but Mccain is bush supreme? so hes taking your guns too fool.

And Obama is half white and half black but hes also Family to Cheney and bush as well through a distant link.


So in case you haven't grasped the concept your guns are going to be gone either way.

IT WOULD BE INTELLIGENT to purchase one for your first amendment right today while you still can. (since thats really the only section of the constitution they have left in place anyway)

Firstly, everyone is related by some link or another, most of it depends on how far you want to go back genealogically.

Second. FIRST amendment? Dude you have to be kidding me. If you want your opinion respected, know what you're talking about.

I apologise i typed fast which was a poor mistake on my part it is the second.

How about this then

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...ATES01/80626023


I won't even type anything just read, more importantly read the comments as well its quite interesting.

Then base whatever opinion you wish to make.

[liquidglass]

I apologise i typed fast which was a poor mistake on my part it is the second.

How about this then

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...ATES01/80626023


I won't even type anything just read, more importantly read the comments as well its quite interesting.

Then base whatever opinion you wish to make.

If it was an honest mistake it's no biggie.


How about what? I didn't even comment on the gun ownership just the cited amendment. There's nothing to say about the article or the comments, this is last weeks news and there's nothing surprising in the link. (even the comments)

So in case you haven't grasped the concept your guns are going to be gone either way.

IT WOULD BE INTELLIGENT to purchase one for your first amendment right today while you still can. (since thats really the only section of the constitution they have left in place anyway)

I will comment on this though. So the 2nd amendment is the only section of the constitution left in place? lol. Read the Amendments lately? there's more than just one that's firmly in place.

Mudslinging is obviously the only thing republicans know how to do right. They cant run a war. They cant defend the country against terrorism. They cant help a shattered economy. They cant get high oil prices lower. They cant come up with a sound energy policy. They cant fix our schools. They cant handle the climate crisis. They cant even be conservative with the budget. They obviously cant interpret the Constitution. They cant run a terrorist prison (Guantanamo). They dont follow the Geneva Conventions. They dont know the difference between Sunni and Shia. Need I really go on?

Hey hey hey, that's not fair, we don't know if they can't do those things.....they haven't even tried yet.

[Brownman18]

My bad i jumped the gun.
[/quote]

The sad truth is the corporations are not obligated to do any of those things, in any portion of this continent.

Legally however they are granted all the legal rights of you and I and every other citizen, lucky for them they also have many more freedoms then us.

Also lucky for them they are not susceptible to destruction or bankruptcy its much harder to do because they are larger and wiser.

Small business on the other hand cannot survive against them anywhere on the globe. They however are liable for all debts and can loose their homes and everything they hold dear.

This system is quite irritating.


Also my bad for jumping the gun and assuming the worst. Edited June 30, 2008 by Brownman18

[Hookah_Bob3]

People who believe Obama will do this nation any good or justice are only deluding themselves beyond recognizable levels. Obama has his own agenda, McCain has his, neither are what the respective parties want from their own candidates. At least, however, I do not question McCain's motives. I question Obama's.

[Bulldog_916]

People who believe Obama will do this nation any good or justice are only deluding themselves beyond recognizable levels. Obama has his own agenda, McCain has his, neither are what the respective parties want from their own candidates. At least, however, I do not question McCain's motives. I question Obama's.

How and why? Is it because his name sounds foreign? Because you got the chain email saying he's a Muslim? Because the speeches are just too good?

Obama wants to change the direction this country is going in. From what I can see, its going in the shitter. Starbucks is closing 600 shops and firing 12000 workers. This will be the first time in several years there has been a net job loss nation-wide. If you really think McCain is going to do anything differently than Bush is, maybe you should take a gander at his voting record. 95% this year voting with Bush. Oil is hitting heights we've never seen. Who do you think is going to get us off oil quicker? McCain or Obama? I'm hedging my bet with Obama. "Let's drill our own reserves! It'll get the price down by 2015 if at all!" Please, we could be weaned off oil by then. Save the bullshit for the farm.

[jezter6]

From what I can see, its going in the shitter. Starbucks is closing 600 shops and firing 12000 workers.

Boo hoo. Cry me a river that a bunch of yuppie ass crybabies can't have their double mocha fru fru with a side of penis shaped biscotti.

Of all the corporations out there to worry about downsizing, if your choice is seeing Starbucks as the mega predictor of your quality of life, you really gotta rethink your priorities man.

[Hookah_Bob3]

People who believe Obama will do this nation any good or justice are only deluding themselves beyond recognizable levels. Obama has his own agenda, McCain has his, neither are what the respective parties want from their own candidates. At least, however, I do not question McCain's motives. I question Obama's.

How and why? Is it because his name sounds foreign? Because you got the chain email saying he's a Muslim? Because the speeches are just too good?

Obama wants to change the direction this country is going in. From what I can see, its going in the shitter. Starbucks is closing 600 shops and firing 12000 workers. This will be the first time in several years there has been a net job loss nation-wide. If you really think McCain is going to do anything differently than Bush is, maybe you should take a gander at his voting record. 95% this year voting with Bush. Oil is hitting heights we've never seen. Who do you think is going to get us off oil quicker? McCain or Obama? I'm hedging my bet with Obama. "Let's drill our own reserves! It'll get the price down by 2015 if at all!" Please, we could be weaned off oil by then. Save the bullshit for the farm.

It has nothing to do with his name, ethnicity, or any political propaganda. Obama is a proponent for change, but how much of his changes do we need? Does he even understand how to make the changes? He may have done wonders for his minority neighborhoods in Chicago, but he's losing support within his own party even as we speak. He has his mind on something other than what he says, and it will not be for the benefit of anyone in this nation. You will elect a president based on his stance on oil. Oil is something that we need to be weaned off of, so I agree with you there. However, the ways that Obama will seek to do so will harm the economy in more ways than one. Windfall taxes, for instance, which Obama is markedly behind will cause even greater price increases, as the companies will not take the hit themselves. Companies always pass it on to the consumers. Also, his intention of increasing taxes to French-esque levels (even higher, actually -- 60% for the highest bracket compared to ~34%) will absolutely destroy the economy. It is apparent that neither you nor he understand the impact of taxes on consumer markets. Increases in taxes (punishments on capital gains) make it so that people are less likely to invest their money, less likely to spend their money, and more likely to save their money. What happens then? The government will end up with less money overall and the economy will be fucked.

Yay.

[Giant Ninja Robot]

People who believe Obama will do this nation any good or justice are only deluding themselves beyond recognizable levels. Obama has his own agenda, McCain has his, neither are what the respective parties want from their own candidates. At least, however, I do not question McCain's motives. I question Obama's.

How and why? Is it because his name sounds foreign? Because you got the chain email saying he's a Muslim? Because the speeches are just too good?

Obama wants to change the direction this country is going in. From what I can see, its going in the shitter. Starbucks is closing 600 shops and firing 12000 workers. This will be the first time in several years there has been a net job loss nation-wide. If you really think McCain is going to do anything differently than Bush is, maybe you should take a gander at his voting record. 95% this year voting with Bush. Oil is hitting heights we've never seen. Who do you think is going to get us off oil quicker? McCain or Obama? I'm hedging my bet with Obama. "Let's drill our own reserves! It'll get the price down by 2015 if at all!" Please, we could be weaned off oil by then. Save the bullshit for the farm.

I so agree with this it's not even funny Bulldog. I'm a little concerned that so many typical washington pundits are lining up behind Obama right now but as long as he keeps his transparancy that's what matters to me. I'm not saying that Obama is going to be the absolute change our nation needs. I believe...

A: This country is effed up right now and we need a dose of transparency from the top down instead of the cloudy smoke filled room politics we've been forced to accept these last 7 (some may say 15) years so that we can face the issues at hand rather than finess them with meaningless political speak and falsely patriotic war speak.

B: No leadership change can overhaul a nation but at least we'll be headed in a more progressive direction, catching up to so many other countries . Maybe the rest of the world wont hate us so much. BTW for any who think Obama is SO liberal - Take a look at world politics and you'll see that in large part Obama is tame, just extreme to our old and dying system.

And this is from someone who voted for Bush in 04.

We need a breath of fresh air people. Hope is a good thing. Also on the fuel thing: Honda released a hydrogen fuel cell/ electric hybrid last week and are forcasting to have prices down to a reasonable cost within 10 years time. No emissions but cold clean water and vapor. Soon we wont even need gas. Of course if McCain is voted in it wont mean anything since they'd link up with auto and oil companies and kill it just like the electric car. All you Cali peeps know what I'm talking about.

BTW the economy IS fucked man. Look around. Edited July 2, 2008 by giant ninja robot

[esheg4ever23]

I'm on the Obama bandwagon.

[anathema]

Gas prices should be even higher through taxing. Why should they be lower just because they're hurting your wallet? Oil is america's drug of choice.

We've had hybrids for a while now, they cost ~9k more and tax than the non hybrid. So you run your car for ~100k miles on 60mpg you save ~$8k with current gas prices ~$4.50/gallon(california). Hybrids aren't even a real competition, only now has it transformed from being a "i'm a tree hugger" to a "hopeful money saver"

Oil demand in america might be dropping and prices are still going up because of forecasts, people see that China will get cars with the production of smaller cars for dirt cheap, meaning they also want oil. what? china has 1.3+ billion people?

And whenever terrorists need fundraising, they just up the price of oil or sell hard drugs.

As for the subject, california is already decided. but i'd hope for obama.

[clibinarius]

I have avoided political discussions lately, and I thought, up until recently, I'd never vote McCain, but I wasn't sure about Obama. Mind you this is a tobacco forum.

The problem I have with Obama is I love my hookah pipe. And the Democrats are actively trying to ban flavored tobacco. I haven't read the bill, but it MIGHT exempt hookah tobacco (though I doubt it) and it exempts MENTHOLS. I viewed this-due to demographics-of the Democrats not wanting to upset the black vote (If someone's PC-using the NYTimes stats, the reality is blacks consume menthols at a far higher rate than whites).

I was outraged. But I'm happier now since anti-smoking activists whom are both black and liberal don't want the bill passed without accounting for Menthols. So I'm happy that this cynical "Keep 25% of the party base happy" might backfire, but in NO WAY do I want to see flavored tobacco BANNED. I LIKE IT. It might be unhealthy, but so's alcohol, and the congress isn't looking to ban flavored beer ads, which are linked to drunk driving deaths, as well as alcohol addiction, or ambien ads.

Obama has made no comment on this issue, and I heard it from a friend, and I was in disbelief, until I searched the New York Times for information.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/business...amp;oref=slogin
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/05/business...thol&st=nyt
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/business...thol&st=nyt

Look, I'm no McCain troll. Nor am I someone out for Nader, or Barr, or a Ron Paul person. I can NOT support the democrats whom allow commercials for controlled substances on the air, or whom want to ban cigarettes without wanting to ban the probably more damaging alcohol (Diabetes, Heart Disease, Obesity and Psychosis, baby!) or even drug company advertisements on some substances that are controlled (Ambien CR-the CR stands for Car I guess, or Lunesta)...furthermore, that the Democrats are attempting in a do-nothing congress with a lame duck president this shows where their priorities are. Why end the war you promised to end when you have to ban flavored tobacco?

As far as voting for McCain: He voted against the tax cuts before he voted for them. He spoke against Farwell before he spoke for them. He said he was a critic of the Iraq War, and then says we should trust Bush more on it. He also set up financing because he took money from Charles Keating.

As far as Obama's "Change"-Bush was a new face on national politics, though an insider, and ran on "Restoring Honor and Integrity" into the White House. Bill Clinton was also a face of change. And what did they bring? The same old, same old. Anyone who thinks Obama, who was supported by the Establishment, who won more superdelegates, who won more caucuses and netted delegates in Texas thanks to party activists despite losing the popular vote is either ignorant of reality or hopes he'd be a fascist to impose HIS set of beliefs on people who don't share them. He was an insurgent only against Clinton, whom was hated by half of the party. The only advantage I can see of Obama over B. Clinton is that Obama probably won't be caught in the same stupidity and lie in the DUMBEST ways possible to make himself an embarrassment, and he speaks far better than Bush and therefore will be respectable. It has nothing to do with his name being foreign.

Oh yeah, one last thing on great reformers: JFK allowed the Bay of Pigs to go forth, ramped up the war in Vietnam, pulled Jupiter Missiles out of Turkey without telling them, started Supply Side economics arguing for taxcuts to get out of a minor recession after Eisenhower. His father was a Nazi Sympathizer as well, and the family privately didn't want to go to war, but did once called, and fought valiantly. Kennedy also was under the influence of a slew of drugs that would make Bush look sober at all points in his life (If one worries about McCain's health, Kennedy's was worse). Furthermore, Robert Kennedy was Joe McCarthy's council; how else did he establish his career. And Kennedy's election was disputed-Kennedy cooked at least Cook County. And when you ask Kennedy supporters what good things he did, they'll say "He got us to the moon" forgetting the efforts of Eisenhower, Johnson, Nixon...in fact, I'm still at a loss to say what makes a rich, patrician son of a bootlegger who's family is a chronic embarrassment such a great president. Can someone enlighten me to what this jelly donut actually did?

http://amphetamines.com/john-kennedy.html

Oh yeah, for the rest of the liberals in the cult of personality of JFK, Eisenhower built more schools per year, more hospitals, more infrastructure and roads than any president up till that point. You like Education and Schools? Thank Eisenhower. You like hospitals? Thank Eisenhower. You like Interstates? Thank Eisenhower. If you don't like any of those things...thank Kennedy. And it took the "Same Old" politician LBJ to pass Civil Rights legistlation and at least attempt the Great Society. Kennedy gets all the credit for Johnson's accomplishments, and Johnson gets the credit for Kennedy's failures. So what does someone who is promising change bring?

The only way I can vote Obama is to punish the incumbent (McCain, in this case). But I'd wish the Democratic congress would be voted out. Telling corrupt politicians we'll fire them if they stop working for the people is the change we need, not just the change we want. And you won't hear Obama, Paul, McCain, Clinton, Bush-you won't hear any of them say that. Except Bob "I don't mean what I voted for anymore" Barr.

Rant over. Edited July 2, 2008 by clibinarius

[Giant Ninja Robot]

i don't think the complete change necesarry in this country will take place under the current two party system but for now it's what we've got and between the two directions I'd like to see my country take I choose Obama. Who wants a hundred more years of a war that was founded on bullshit? Despite that it's fallen from the sensationalist coverage previously seen, this war is still having a massive impact on our economy and soldiers. Support the troops not the "War". Sorry went on a random bunny trail. It's late and I'm sleepy. - Out yo. Step It Up America, step it up. (and thanks quilted maple )