Can You Take Any More God?

[Theophage]

Hell, if half the people who were religious followed their beliefs to the T, we'd have a lot less problems in this world.

Actually, I would think the opposite to be true. Fundamentalists seem to be causing a lot of the problems -- you don't see religious moderates flying airplanes into skyscrapers or blowing themselves up in crowded marketplaces.

Just a thought...

[insidius]

Hell, if half the people who were religious followed their beliefs to the T, we'd have a lot less problems in this world.

Actually, I would think the opposite to be true. Fundamentalists seem to be causing a lot of the problems -- you don't see religious moderates flying airplanes into skyscrapers or blowing themselves up in crowded marketplaces.

Just a thought...

Show me any religion that tells it's followers to kill.


Again, people are mistaking fanatics for religion.. Fanatics do not represent religion in any capacity. They are zealots and probably the furthest you can possibly get from god. Edited May 21, 2007 by insidius

[ShishaFred]

Hey what do you expect people to think after the islamic population has be demonized by media and depicted as blood-thirsty monsters that want to eat your head and will most likely suicide bomb your neighborhood kindergarten?

[Hannibal]

A little background of myself:

I was born, raised, and currently am Catholic. I won't lie, I'm still Catholic because I'm used to it. Its still the most comfortable to me and my problems with it aren't great enough for me shy away.......yet. I have lived in England, Saudi Arabia, and America so I have not been isolated from other religions.

I believe in evolution, God, and Karma.

Here are some of my ideas/problems (they are listed because I lack any kind of writing skills to put them into a well formulated argument as it is too late in the night ):

1) I believe that organized religion works for a lot of people. It helps them cope with life and the stress, trials, and hardships that come with it. For this sole reason I believe it does more good than bad.

2) It is the right to every human to choose to believe what they want. It is no mans right to try to take that away from another.

3) I hate those who try to force beliefs upon others.

4) If you tell me that I'm "going to hell" for not believing what you do.....well you can go ahead and tape a knife to the wall and run your face into it because your credibility as a competent human has just gone down the crapper in my book.

5) I wish popular America would stop pinning every middle-eastern looking fellow as a "terrorist". And I wish that there was a better understanding here in the US that Islam is not a crazy-hateful religion...it is just those extremists who have tainted its image.

6) Buddhists and Hippies are the friendliest people ever and I give each one of you a cyber high-five.

7) Not all environmentalists are absolute tree huggers so quit bugging me . I just think everything should be efficient and messing up our planet is definitely not efficient.

8) I have no problem with atheists, but just like the bible beaters please don't try to force that on me or be condescending....because you can share the same fate as them for all I care.

9) I do believe civil debates, such as this one, discussing such issues as creation, evolution, and religions in their entirety are very meaningful and necessary. If we couldn't discuss and reflect upon each others ideas then how are we to grow as humans?

10) If hookah-smoking was a religion I'd be a devout hookahite. I think if some of our world leaders would just a have a hookah sesh then things would mellow out a bit!

Thats just mah thoughts. Oh and all you guys on the forum rock, I hold nothing against any of you .

[Scheetz]

Made up statistics for the win.

The government tells us how our life should be lived too, so what? Do people always listen? No.

Made up, no shit. That comes from my own personal life. If it were true statistics I would have a reference wouldn't I?

So, have you made it out of High School yet? Or maybe you are partially through your college life?

I think you need to reread your government text books. Last time I checked, the government just gives you guidelines of what not to do. They DO NOT tell you how to live your life. They make things illegal that are looked down upon by the majority of the population and things that will harm it. Do I need to go open my dusty bible and pull some passages about things you MUST DO and things you CAN NOT DO.



I have nothing against people who choose to follow God, Allah or whom ever they choose. However, I do not want to be bothered by people at my door attempting to convert me from mine to theirs.

Religion isn't prominent because people need to be told how to live. You're wrong.

Then give us the all mighty answer since you apparently know it?


I'll use what Hannibal stated since its clear enough already.
----It helps them cope with life and the stress, trials, and hardships that come with it.
As I stated, in this world people need something in their lives helping them move along.

They are zealots and probably the furthest you can possibly get from god.

That explains everything about you. It also explains why you will blow everything off that I have stated.

1) I believe that organized religion works for a lot of people. It helps them cope with life and the stress, trials, and hardships that come with it. For this sole reason I believe it does more good than bad.

2) It is the right to every human to choose to believe what they want. It is no mans right to try to take that away from another.

3) I hate those who try to force beliefs upon others.

4) If you tell me that I'm "going to hell" for not believing what you do.....well you can go ahead and tape a knife to the wall and run your face into it because your credibility as a competent human has just gone down the crapper in my book.

5) I wish popular America would stop pinning every middle-eastern looking fellow as a "terrorist". And I wish that there was a better understanding here in the US that Islam is not a crazy-hateful religion...it is just those extremists who have tainted its image.

I agree with everything you stated right there. Can't relate to environmentalists though.

[insidius]

Made up, no shit. That comes from my own personal life. If it were true statistics I would have a reference wouldn't I?

So, have you made it out of High School yet? Or maybe you are partially through your college life?

I think you need to reread your government text books. Last time I checked, the government just gives you guidelines of what not to do. They DO NOT tell you how to live your life. They make things illegal that are looked down upon by the majority of the population and things that will harm it. Do I need to go open my dusty bible and pull some passages about things you MUST DO and things you CAN NOT DO.

I have nothing against people who choose to follow God, Allah or whom ever they choose. However, I do not want to be bothered by people at my door attempting to convert me from mine to theirs.

While you're at it, pull out your dusty "government text books" and pull some passages about things you MUST DO (taxes, laws, permits, et al ad nauseam) and things you CANNOT DO (gay marriage, weed, steroids, et al ad nauseam). Then we can compare notes about how government and religion (and religious government officials) tell us how to live our lives!

Then give us the all mighty answer since you apparently know it?


I'll use what Hannibal stated since its clear enough already.
----It helps them cope with life and the stress, trials, and hardships that come with it.
As I stated, in this world people need something in their lives helping them move along.

Why'd you ask me for an answer if you provided one yourself? You said yourself you don't want people trying to convert you to their beliefs, so I'll not bother.

They are zealots and probably the furthest you can possibly get from god.

That explains everything about you. It also explains why you will blow everything off that I have stated.

Sorry, I really don't get this statement. Are you saying I'm a zealot? How do you figure? How am I blowing off what you've said?




I'm not sure why you're getting hostile and personal with me.

You were doing it in the other thread, too.

I don't appreciate it and I'll ask you kindly to stop. Edited May 22, 2007 by insidius

[james]

+1 for Hannibal

[Hannibal]

+1 for Hannibal

Yay !

[nicayotte]

My personal opinion on religion is that anyone can praise who or whatever they would like aslong as it sin't harming or disrupting anyone else, myself i believe in God and such but i am not to into it, i rarely attend chuch but that doesn't mean i am not a believer, every religion has its good and bads like everyone in the world does...... The only thing i hate are these following examples....

" Me and my girlfriend are walking down the street and someone comes up saying god loves you and you must love him back or hell will be your new home...." You push your religion on me, i get pissed off.... my choice so leave me alone.........

" people who protest abortions and have their 7 year old kids holding pictures of dead babies and such saying God does not approve"
Once again i feel it is the persons own choice on what they want to do about it, sort of like we get to choose what we wear to go in public.... donot get the kids involved in something they have very little information about....

and finally the Westboro baptist church...... these people just make me sick, i don't care what your beliefs are but praising the death of people who protected your freedom to even have a religion is terrible, whatever your feelings are on the war, for it or not thats terrible...... check there website out www.godhatesfags.com
Link 1

Video 2 Edited July 6, 2007 by nicayotte

[jaker29902]

Heres what I came to a while ago. I like to think intellectually I matured very early, and as such I began questioning, what had been blind faith, I thought to myself, why does evolution make so much scientific sense and God doesn't? Well a friend of the family/teacher of mine helped me to understand that evolution makes perfect sense, the world was not made neccesarily in seven days, and that God did not "make" Adam and Eve. Now Im guessing most of you are thinking, yes good for you, but hang on. Now consider this, would man in ancient times understand the concepts of evolution and ideas such as the origins of planets? No, so how do you explain that to them? you explain it to them with simpler versions and symbolism, in comes the bible, not necessarily the literal word of God, but the basic idea of it.

Okay now about "forcing" my religion on others, heres another thing I thought of, if you knew that your friend was about to walk over a cliff and plunge to their death and didnt know they were going to, you would stop them right? (I really hope you would....). Yes I understand there are those that are completely stupid about it, but I feel that it is my duty to try and guide my friends to what I know in my heart to be the correct path, and I do try my best not to be pushy about it, but I will invite my friends to church with me, and when they come over for dinner, I do my best to include them in our prayer (not asking them to say the prayer, but have them join us while my father/mother/I say it)


EDIT: Checked out the people from the phelps "church", could only watch about a 1/3 of it before I had to close it down, people like that make me want to dress up in my sunday best, grab a bible, go stand next to them, and read verses EXTREMLY LOUDLY Edited July 6, 2007 by jaker29902

[nicayotte]

No i don't think inviting friends over or inviting them to attend chuch is forcing i just find it annoying when someone comes up and gives you a piece of paper or booklet and expects that to help you join there religion, people don't wak down the street looking for a religion.....

[jaker29902]

No i don't think inviting friends over or inviting them to attend chuch is forcing i just find it annoying when someone comes up and gives you a piece of paper or booklet and expects that to help you join there religion, people don't wak down the street looking for a religion.....

Eh, yeah I can see how it can be annoying but it makes the people who are handing out the stuff feel better, because they are helping to spread the word of God and if some people convert because of it, thats not a bad thing eh?

[insidius]

Okay now about "forcing" my religion on others, heres another thing I thought of, if you knew that your friend was about to walk over a cliff and plunge to their death and didnt know they were going to, you would stop them right? (I really hope you would....). Yes I understand there are those that are completely stupid about it, but I feel that it is my duty to try and guide my friends to what I know in my heart to be the correct path, and I do try my best not to be pushy about it, but I will invite my friends to church with me, and when they come over for dinner, I do my best to include them in our prayer (not asking them to say the prayer, but have them join us while my father/mother/I say it)


EDIT: Checked out the people from the phelps "church", could only watch about a 1/3 of it before I had to close it down, people like that make me want to dress up in my sunday best, grab a bible, go stand next to them, and read verses EXTREMLY LOUDLY.

So how is this not forcing your beliefs on others?

[azcoyote]

I have thought a lot about the issues raised in this thread. It's my view that god exists, but is almost entirely mysterious. Religious thought evolves to attempt answers. We can put forth theories, but nobody has a lock on "truth" Here the truth is unknowbale. That is why theories about it are called call faith(s).

The fact that most people are occasionally capable of compassion and love leads me to suspect that a little spark of divinity exists in all of us. Even your "enemies" have it. Some think of it as their "higher self". Some take that spark and grow it into an illuminating flame, while others pay it no notice.

Genesis states that god created man in his image. I think the reverse is a good deal more likely. Or put another way, the divine reveals itself in a language and in a way that people can understand given their cultural baggage. At various times, prophets and seers emerge to help light our way. None of them are any more divine than you or I, and all their words should be taken with a grain of salt.

Organized religion has been a mixed blessing, at best. The proselytizing brands promulgate an "us and them" mentality, that is divisive and dangerous. As a religion grows, a bureaucracy must be established and a hierarchy imposed. These human institutions soon become corrupted with career builders and fortune hunters. A case in point- practically all the valuable agricultural land in Hawaii is owned today by the descendants of missionaries.

After expelling the non believers (Jews and Muslims) from Catholic Spain, the king seized all their wealth and was able to finance the conquest of the Americas. All this was justified as god's will, to convert the heathen. (And take his gold). With a little research, I'm sure I could find lots more examples. Today, growing elements of radical Islam view the world in much the same way. I'm afraid we're not out of the woods yet.

Isn't it funny how religious movements always end up seizing political power? When people put their faith in a doctrine, they surrender their reasoning faculties to unquestionable tenets of faith. Then they will do the murderous bidding of their leaders without thought of shame or remorse. Assured a place in paradise, all manner of depravity is possible.

[insidius]

Isn't it funny how religious movements always end up seizing political power? When people put their faith in a doctrine, they surrender their reasoning faculties to unquestionable tenets of faith. Then they will do the murderous bidding of their leaders without thought of shame or remorse. Assured a place in paradise, all manner of depravity is possible.

Again, fallacy of man and not neccessarily religion.

[azcoyote]

Isn't it funny how religious movements always end up seizing political power? When people put their faith in a doctrine, they surrender their reasoning faculties to unquestionable tenets of faith. Then they will do the murderous bidding of their leaders without thought of shame or remorse. Assured a place in paradise, all manner of depravity is possible.

Again, fallacy of man and not neccessarily religion.

Religion is a human invention; I fail to see your point.

[insidius]

Isn't it funny how religious movements always end up seizing political power? When people put their faith in a doctrine, they surrender their reasoning faculties to unquestionable tenets of faith. Then they will do the murderous bidding of their leaders without thought of shame or remorse. Assured a place in paradise, all manner of depravity is possible.

Again, fallacy of man and not neccessarily religion.

Religion is a human invention; I fail to see your point.

I suppose that could be argued, ultimately. We just don't know 'for sure.' While I have no doubt that religious tenets were written down by man, their origins, in my opinion, are debatable (then again, so are all the Mysteries).

Although, I'm not sure of a single valid religion that requires or even asks its followers to kill their fellow man. I know a lot of men that ask and require the same, but no religions. Religion, in and of itself, is not harmful. It is its application by man that causes detriment. It can be used, just as anything else can be, as a tool to control and deceive.

You're not the first to miss my point today. No matter, my point is of no consequence, as it serves no real purpose here, other than to inspire thought, but I don't suspect that will happen in any case.

[james]

Although, I'm not sure of a single valid religion that requires or even asks its followers to kill their fellow man.

Leviticus much?

[insidius]

Although, I'm not sure of a single valid religion that requires or even asks its followers to kill their fellow man.

Leviticus much?

Can you be more specific?

[ghostofdavid]

Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. It asks that the maximum amount of punishment given to a murder is that the man be slain himself. No more. It isn't a command of ultimate vengeance, it is saying that the punishment should fit the crime.

[jonny_lech]

Usually, I find these sorts of conversations to be mind numbing. But without taking a side, I want to throw this out here:

The term "forced upon" gets bandied about a lot in these sorts of discussions. What exactly IS "forced upon"? While there are instances where conversion is demanded with penalty of death in the world, let's confine this discussion to the Anglophonic world, since the vast majority of people in this conversation are from the USA, Canada, UK or Australia. Therefore, I challenge posters to quantify what is meant by "forced". Is this an implication of threat? Or, as I suspect, this a reference to "an unwelcome intrusion"? If the latter, consider all the unwelcome intrusions you may face in a given day. A telemarketing call. A coworker staring over your shoulder while you work. The dinging of your car in the parking lot. My point is simply that there are unwelcome intrusions in our lives, constantly. And people are constantly promoting their ideas, many of which we will not agree with. Going onto the train in the evening for my commute home, I've been offered fliers and literature of every stripe. I've seen people passing out literature, holding signs and promoting political material that makes the claim "Bush is the new Hitler!". Now that's bound to offend some people. But do we level the same vitriol at them that we do the street preacher screaming fire and brimstone, handing out Chick tracts? Or do we spare them because we more closely align ourselves with their message, despite the fact that they are guilty of the very same crime of shoving their message down someone's unwelcoming throat?

[azcoyote]

And while we are defining our terms, just how do you determine if a religion is valid? Who gets the last word on that? You? Perhaps you are unaware that the Vatican once fielded and army to invade Britain. In Exodus, you can read where g-d commands the Israelites to kill all the Amalek, a tribe then living in Canaan. They are admonished not to spare a single child. I don't know if it's true, but I heard that leaving the faith marks you for death if you are a Muslim. I've seen a princess beheaded on TV - from Saudi Arabia, because she dishonored her family. I'm starting to like Buddha more every day.

[newsman]

I'm starting to like Buddha more every day.

+1 to that.

[jonny_lech]

And while we are defining our terms, just how do you determine if a religion is valid? Who gets the last word on that? You? Perhaps you are unaware that the Vatican once fielded and army to invade Britain. In Exodus, you can read where g-d commands the Israelites to kill all the Amalek, a tribe then living in Canaan. They are admonished not to spare a single child. I don't know if it's true, but I heard that leaving the faith marks you for death if you are a Muslim. I've seen a princess beheaded on TV - from Saudi Arabia, because she dishonored her family. I'm starting to like Buddha more every day.

One could argue: "It's valid if it's legally recognized as such", although this litmus test doesn't hold up in countries like China IE Falun Gong or what not.

As a general rule, the only specific case that I can recall where a religion is not considered 'valid' was Secular Humanism. I believe that most regard it as a philosophy of sorts as an ethical system for atheists and agnostics.

[insidius]

And while we are defining our terms, just how do you determine if a religion is valid? Who gets the last word on that? You? Perhaps you are unaware that the Vatican once fielded and army to invade Britain. In Exodus, you can read where g-d commands the Israelites to kill all the Amalek, a tribe then living in Canaan. They are admonished not to spare a single child. I don't know if it's true, but I heard that leaving the faith marks you for death if you are a Muslim. I've seen a princess beheaded on TV - from Saudi Arabia, because she dishonored her family. I'm starting to like Buddha more every day.

Oh, please.

Have you read anything I've been saying? Do you really think, given my viewpoint on things, that I would honestly believe that I decided which religions were valid and which were not? I have a little more sense than that.

That said, there are methods to determining the 'validity' of philisophical and theological systems. No, I cannot explain them, as I'm no expert on the subject.

What does the Vatican fielding an army have to do with anything? I couldn't find proof of the Vatican invading anything, but I'm admittedly unsure of what I'm searching for, as well. I can only assume that a man gave the order regardless, and I'm fairly certain 'invade Britain' isn't a religious tenet or a commandment or anything set down by the Creator.

Look: ultimately, I'm not religious. I don't think organized religion is a good idea, beyond that it creates communities and serves as a source of inspiration for many people. I think spiritual matters are best left personal and individual for the most part, few rituals withstanding. It is this 'mob mentality' and the power that it gives certain men that I think is detrimental and thus to be avoided.

However, it is these men, and their abuse of power, that I'm trying to impress upon you as wrong, not the religion itself. These men of power and position have little bearing on the religion as it is.

*shrugs* It doesn't matter. I'm really not here to defend religion. I guess I just hoped you'd see things a bit differently. Edited July 8, 2007 by insidius