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Occupy Wallstreet: Discuss

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JFTR:

Supply & Demand does not mean I demand it, the government must supply it.

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This whole thing is hardly based on the system itself or the political parties involved...
The fact is this, companies reference CEO pay off of each other on an average occasion...
When a company is attempting to make it into the Top 5 or 10, they want to make the industry standard on pay to board members and CEO's.
So they pool the average salary of the big name companies (roughly 40-60 million a year) and find that to level with these companies they should pay their CEO 40 million at the very least.
So on average, its the companies themselves raising the salaries over and over to compete for the highest standing in the marketplace.
And to be honest, if the company values their CEO as much as they do, why shouldn't it be this way?

The government can get involved, but frankly they've known about this for years, and shouldn't really need to step in for it as its each of the company's individual problems. I'd be nearly positive that nearly all the companies aren't ecstatic about providing 40-60 million in resources to one individual, but to keep up in the market strategically its almost a necessity these days.

What I will definitely say is this (and no personal attack on anyone on here who has been going to these "rally's") but the people complaining need to stop. Its draining the economy with these people out of work, people are loosing their jobs and then whining about it when it was their choice to go and rally, and to be frank I think were all tired of hearing about it.

Bunch of hipsters with nothing else to do half the time as they decided to become art majors, or music majors and cant get a job. Well why not go out and just do it?

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The other issue is that these huge corporations that can afford to pay a CEO 40 million get tax breaks and taxed a lot smaller percentage than the individual trying to pay his mortgage and provide for their family while working a middle-income type job.

But hell, think of all the jobs they could create by even halving that salary? Think of all the jobs 20 million dollars could provide. Those jobs in turn would give more people jobs, so less people on social assistance, but also they would have extra money to help them as a consumer and to bolster the economy further. A 20 million dollar salary is still ridiculously excessive considering everything, but still. Edited by angekfire

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itt: people complaining about other people doing the same things they would be if they were in the others' shoes.

... but don't get hung up on that! Have you tried what they're doing? Take what you want from the system, derive what you need from your own initiatives.

There is not such a parameter as to either reject or embrace, solely. If you want to see the real impotence of "the system", live outside of it.


Food. Shelter. Pants optional.

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[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1319680110' post='529041']
itt: people complaining about other people doing the same things they would be if they were in the others' shoes.
[/quote]

The same thing could be said about slavery.

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[left](From NY Times)[/left]
[left]The rich have gotten richer over the last three decades -- and the very rich have gotten very richer -- far outpacing the middle class, according to a new government study.[/left]
[left]The huge disparity in income growth significantly has widened the gap between the rich and the middle class, a key focus of protesters on Wall Street, in Los Angeles and elsewhere.[/left]
[left]The top 1% of households saw their after-tax household income grow by 275% from 1979 to 2007, more than quadruple the growth of the rest of the top 20% of the population during that period, according to the [url="http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=12485"]study[/url] by nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.[/left]
[left]Meanwhile, income for the 60% of households that make up the middle of the income scale increased by slightly less than 40%, the study found. The poor -- the 20% of the population with the lowest income -- saw just an 18% increase.[/left]
[left]"As a result of that uneven income growth, the distribution of after-tax household income in the United States was substantially more unequal in 2007 than in 1979," the report said.[/left]
[left]The findings come as protesters have occupied parks near Wall Street, Los Angeles City Hall and around the country, decrying the growing pocketbooks and influence of what they have called "the 1%." The protesters have declared themselves to be "the 99%."[/left]
[left]Overall, inflation-adjusted, after-tax income for the entire population rose 62% from 1979 to 2007.[/left]
[left]The report said the exact cause of the rapid income growth for the richest Americans are not clear, but researchers have speculated on some reasons: soaring salaries of superstar actors, athletes and musicians, more liberal executive compensation, and the growth of the financial sector.[/left]
[left]At the same time, "the equalizing effect of federal taxes was smaller," the report said. The overall average federal tax rate fell slightly during the period because of income tax cuts, and the tax system became less progressive as more money was raised through payroll taxes.[/left]

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[quote name='joytron' timestamp='1319680980' post='529043']
[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1319680110' post='529041']
itt: people complaining about other people doing the same things they would be if they were in the others' shoes.
[/quote]

The same thing could be said about slavery.
[/quote]
Considering about the only similarity is utility maximization, it's a stretch. Slave owners physically contained people and deprived them of the ability to die by their own impotence. The government supports an economic system that stops people from accumulating debt, specializing in a facet of labor, and redeeming free healthcare.

Would I own slaves if the government permitted it? Probably not, because I'm not a maximizer.

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I'm flat broke and have accumulated my fair share of debt... am I occupying Wallstreet crying out about how I deserve a CEO's money?

As far as im concerned it is on the individual to make a living for themselves. People live on next to nothing, on under 1000-3000 a month, and they don't run around complaining about how a CEO isn't providing them with a living...

The thing that I don't quite understand, nor care to understand is why these people think that they are entitled to said money...

With the past 2 weeks of bickering, whining, and protesting, they could have been placing job applications, changing jobs to something they felt was more fitting to their lifestyle, and overall not draining the economy by walking away from their own responsibilities.

From what I can see they wanted a spot on the television, to create something that people will have to talk about, and to put themselves in the spotlight...

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[quote name='A13lackFish' timestamp='1319683703' post='529049']
People live on next to nothing, on under 1000-3000 a month, and they don't run around complaining about how a CEO isn't providing them with a living...

...why these people think that they are entitled to said money...
[/quote]

These things I agree with. I can't, honestly, criticize a person for acting or standing up for their paradigm, but I can disagree with their interpretation of reality.

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The strange part, at least for me, of the whole "occupy" movement is that if they were coherent, informed, and knowledgeable about that to which they protest, and took the time to learn the actual causes of their "problems" they would find it has bloody little to do with CEO's making what a company is willing to pay them, nor is it banks that were told they were taking the bailout weather they wanted it or not. They would find the cause to be in a gov't that is not going to change until it actually fails. And is that failure going to be a damn scary day, or what? What we have going on now sucks, but at least it's not Greece!

Only a moron says "tax the rich" or some such foolishness, all the while never, ever, actually defining, numerically, what "rich" actually is. After all, a stinky grad student that hasn't had a shower in a month, living under a blue tarp in a park in NYC is damn rich by comparison to someone living the last year in an old refrigerator box under a railroad bridge in Chicago. All taxes will eventually trickle down to the lowest man on the totem pole - Ready to pay your share for a gov't that can't quit pissing money away on all sorts of stupidity?

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[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1317461971' post='525957']
To march on Wall St. and not Washington D.C. is extremely myopic.
[/quote]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3cOOyHuwv0&feature=player_embedded#!
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My pal Zak. Fuck the squirrels. The mom is my good friend and covocalist in muh band. Fun times. Look for a rap song from Zak, myself, and others soon featuring references to old school wrestling, sea creatures, and strange sounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=knf4O9fNyUk#!

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[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1319069024' post='528369']

Want to protest the problem, go sit in front of the house, senate, and white house - better yet, go confront the career politicians in their offices, They are the culprits, not the banks operating in the framework the gov't established. Good grief, we see people protesting banks getting big bailouts... but not see anyone banging their fist on the counter and holding the bastards that gave them that bailout accountable. IMNHO it's about 20 years too late to save any of it. Those that have will keep, and the police-state the USA has become is there to protect the cookie jar for those that have - and there isn't jack that you, or anyone else can do about that at this point.
[/quote]

They may as well be one and the same. The wealthy own our political process.

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[quote name='A13lackFish' timestamp='1319683703' post='529049']
From what I can see they wanted a spot on the television, to create something that people will have to talk about, and to put themselves in the spotlight...
[/quote]

I believe the idea is to raise awareness, and a desire to attack corruption within the government and the financial sector. Divisiveness and complacency with the current system does nothing to work towards a solution. It's akin to saying "shut up, everything's fine." There is also the issue of statistics. With four unemployed to every open job, and even more underemployed, living without health care, or means to secure it, it just isn't that easy. Of course there are going to be a lot of people who are angry and disenfranchised with such a disturbing and ever increasing redistribution of wealth to the top 1% of the population, and the government and financial institutions that are allowing it to happen. Sanctioning it, in many cases. It's harmful for everyone, including those who are hard working Americans.

I have a job, and I'm going to school. I will be a paramedic within the next couple years if all goes well. I plan to follow that with a bachelors degree in biology. I'm lucky to have what I do, and the money needed to get an education without going into debt, but that doesn't mean I don't worry about the future. If things keep on going the way there are none of our futures are secure, hard work or not. Edited by Ralleac
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[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9B1ZdEUKJM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9B1ZdEUKJM[/url]

The people certainly seem like a steady down to earth group of individuals. I would certainly hire them for valuable positions in a Fortune 500 company...

The majority of what is happening down there has nothing at all to do with their slogan. Sure there are a few people who are actually concerned about where our economy is going, and how CEO's are influencing government money. But the vast majority of the people there are more or less bandwagon protesters, in it for the spotlight I aforementioned which was in no way, shape, or form meaning awareness.

Healthcare is an issue in itself by its current state, not based on this current Wallstreet situation, so we should likely avoid that topic for now in this specific thread.

To specify though, sure there is an influential power in big business. Sure, the CEO's make vast lump sum amounts of money, more in fact, than many of us will make together as a whole in our lifetimes. But even as a Senior in the Business program at my school, I cannot justify why these people feel they are entitled to someone else's money?

Have you been down to the Wallstreet protests yet? If you get a minute please visit it because it is an eye opener regarding the type of people actually protesting, and will give you a perception of what I mean when I say "why do they deserve it" over the people who actually earned it...

I don't know where my future will be, but I can tell you it will not advance anyone anywhere to sit there, doing nothing to help the economy, and begging for a hand out from individuals who made a living for themselves instead of pile driving their finances into debt.

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Heh, let's grab a camera and go film the weirdest people in a crowd. The thing is, you can always see scores of regular looking people in the background. Why aren't they ever talking to them? Because it isn't funny, and it doesn't suit their agenda.

[img]http://cityofstrangers.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Investors-550x366.jpg[/img] Edited by Ralleac

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Also, it isn't just about CEO compensation, nor wanting a welfare state.

[url="http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/11/02"]http://www.commondre...view/2011/11/02[/url]

This is the problem. Corporations can financially influence the government in ways that the common citizen is incapable of. It might feel like the people have a voice, but the way things stand now, money speaks far louder than a vote ever will. This allows them to influence regulation in their favor at the expense of those below. Edited by Ralleac

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I went to 3 major tea party events

I saw zero crime
zero thefts
zero acts of destruction to property, public or private
zero vulgar acts in public
But most telling... I saw Zero rapes/assaults. ows is up to what, 4 or 5 actually reported, and ows "leadership" admitting to others they handled internally.

Says all I need to know about that crowd, and anyone affiliated/supporting it. Truly the scum of the nation.

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[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1320332679' post='530094']
I went to 3 major tea party events

I saw zero crime
zero thefts
zero acts of destruction to property, public or private
zero vulgar acts in public
But most telling... I saw Zero rapes/assaults. ows is up to what, 4 or 5 actually reported, and ows "leadership" admitting to others they handled internally.

Says all I need to know about that crowd, and anyone affiliated/supporting it. Truly the scum of the nation.
[/quote]

I've personally seen acts of destruction and vulgarity coming the Tea Party events and heard reports of purses being stolen or whatever. But..... I don't like the Tea Party, so I keep my eyes open for those things. You don't like Occupy Wall Street, so those things are going to come to your attention. That's human nature coming into place. Anytime you put a large number of human beings together they're going to be some crap going on. Look at Hookah Forum and the times Mush has to smack us for heavens sake. But you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Rejecting the principals along with the riff-raff doesn't make you wise. Just stubborn.

'Rani
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[quote name='Ralleac' timestamp='1320294135' post='530058']
Also, it isn't just about CEO compensation, nor wanting a welfare state.

[url="http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/11/02"]http://www.commondre...view/2011/11/02[/url]

This is the problem. [b]Corporations can financially influence the government in ways that the common citizen is incapable of. It might feel like the people have a voice, but the way things stand now, money speaks far louder than a vote ever will. This allows them to influence regulation in their favor at the expense of those below.[/b]
[/quote]

This is the key to [u]everything[/u] the protests all over the world are about.

'Rani
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[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1320334799' post='530098']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1320332679' post='530094']
I went to 3 major tea party events

I saw zero crime
zero thefts
zero acts of destruction to property, public or private
zero vulgar acts in public
But most telling... I saw Zero rapes/assaults. ows is up to what, 4 or 5 actually reported, and ows "leadership" admitting to others they handled internally.

Says all I need to know about that crowd, and anyone affiliated/supporting it. Truly the scum of the nation.
[/quote]

I've personally seen acts of destruction and vulgarity coming the Tea Party events and heard reports of purses being stolen or whatever. But..... I don't like the Tea Party, so I keep my eyes open for those things. You don't like Occupy Wall Street, so those things are going to come to your attention. That's human nature coming into place. Anytime you put a large number of human beings together they're going to be some crap going on. Look at Hookah Forum and the times Mush has to smack us for heavens sake. But you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Rejecting the principals along with the riff-raff doesn't make you wise. Just stubborn.

'Rani
[/quote]

Fire bombs
rapes
destroyed property
NHT sales (in one case from a tent occupied by children)
3000+ arrests
businesses laying off staff because of actions of OWS
at least one weapon (a Klash variant of some form) in the crowd
Attempts to overturn citizen's vehicles with them still it them
Shootings in NY up 154% blamed on OWS... the numbers seemed skewed when you look at the, but it will be a reason
Assaults on cops

I could go on, but you get the point.


and you are calling that the same as a purse snatching that may/may not have been a member of the group? Rani, I know you are smarter than that.

What these stupid bastards are doing is giving gov't a reason to suppress any speech/protest/dissent activity. At the point where something happens that hits the tipping point, the gov't will move in and use this whole event as a reason to take more rights away from the rest of us. I am thinking that point is coming very soon. The gov't is giving the OWS activity enough rope to hang the rest of us. How much do you want to bet?

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Anytime you have a large group of people gathered for any period of time, there will be stragglers who will glom on. If there is food, you're going to attract people who have none. If there are lots and lots of people, there will be those who think they can hide in the crowd and do whatever they think they can. Predators will look at it as a feast of idealistic prey. These people will probably have no clue as to why there is a gathering and won't care if they did. And, most of the "occupy" occupations are in cities where you are going to have those sort of activities happening anyway.

I haven't heard of a tea party gathering like this. Any large gatherings I have heard about were inside, paid, screened, etc. So that would eliminate the "hangers on". And they were only measured in hours, or days, not weeks.

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[quote name='atalanta' timestamp='1320346426' post='530117']
Anytime you have a large group of people gathered for any period of time, there will be stragglers who will glom on. If there is food, you're going to attract people who have none. If there are lots and lots of people, there will be those who think they can hide in the crowd and do whatever they think they can. Predators will look at it as a feast of idealistic prey. These people will probably have no clue as to why there is a gathering and won't care if they did. And, most of the "occupy" occupations are in cities where you are going to have those sort of activities happening anyway.

I haven't heard of a tea party gathering like this. Any large gatherings I have heard about were inside, paid, screened, etc. So that would eliminate the "hangers on". And they were only measured in hours, or days, not weeks.
[/quote]


Not looking "indoors" here... or am I missing a roof somewhere?
http://www.leftcoastrebel.com/2010/08/photos-pictures-glenn-beck-restoring.html D.C.
http://www.libertyevents.org/events/index.php?com=detail&eID=944 Denver
http://www.examiner.com/tea-party-in-new-york/teaparty365-announces-new-meetings-for-tax-day-rally New york
I could give you many, many more, just a few examples here.


You are incorrect about locations, making your point, well, invalid at best, deceptive at worst.


Still I don't see any rapes, assaults, firebombs, ak-47's, tear gas, cops in riot gear, destroyed property, businesses laying people off, fools crapping in the streets, general public threatened, attacking people in their cars, ect.

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Is it bad that I kinda want the zombie apocalypse to happen already so that I can instead have to live with a bunch of mindless zombies instead of the stupid Americans on BOTH sides?
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