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Live And Let Live

Cheese//

By Cheese//
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Cheese// Newbie

Cheese//

Posted
Posted
This is an age of tolerance.
People's race, creed, religion and sexual orientation do need to be taken into consideration before we start talking. That's just a fact of life.
But many people prefer to just stay quiet because of a type of human that will bring the end of the world with them.
Not blacks,
gays
or Muslims
but extremists.
Extremists are the people who strap bombs to themselves and kill innocent humans.
Extremists are the people who beat others to death for no better reason than their skin colour.
Extremists are the people who ruin lives.

I'm not taking a swipe at one group of people. I'm criticising them all.
Where there is an idea there will always be extremists to taint it.

So this is my idea:
LIVE AN LET LIVE
Voice your opinions and if you don't attack other opinions then the same courtesy will be extended to you.
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Foos Newbie

Foos

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QUOTE (Sonthert @ Aug 31 2007, 03:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Whenever people stop being people and start being group member, they become assholes. I think thats what the man's saying.


Well I guess it would depend largely on the kind of group you were a member of. I'm not sure calling people involved in groups that do volunteer services assholes is what the OP is saying either. tongue.gif
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Sonthert Newbie

Sonthert

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Not necessarily. You can be a person in a group, or you can become part of the group. Theres a subtle difference...but an important one.

Look at religion, some people are extremely religious, but still judge other people not on their religion or other attributes but on their own personal merits. Many extremely religious people, on the other hand start judging people because they don't have the same sexual preferences, they don't have the same views about abortion, the color of their skin, they belong to a different religion, etc. and then they magically they turn into assholes. Same religion, different people. Some religions are notorious for that, some religions are much more relaxed. Even though the most essential of Christian teachings say that certain things are wrong, these people go against it...go ahead...how many of you Christians supported a war recently? The bibley book says thou shalt not kill...its a commandment.

Another one of my favorites is when people refer to me as an atheist...I am a non-theist, with rationalist and humanist tendencies. Atheist quite literally means "without religion" and thats about as reasonable as saying a baseball field is somehow off because it doesn't have soccer posts. Certain people assume they know something about atheists "Atheists are this way, atheists are like that, atheists don't believe in anything...", they have some generalizations worked out in their head about atheists...but how do you do this? If we were Asian instead of atheists, you'd be a racist. You're just judging people unfairly because they don't follow the same region you do. I think the OP might be trying to say, just try to get along with people and stop trying to find differences between you and them.
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ghostofdavid Newbie

ghostofdavid

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The New Testament has very little to say about the subject of war. The Old Testament seems to see it as a necessary element to the state of Israel/Judah or the people of the Hebrews. Each story has the protagonist and antagonist.

What do we know about the New Testament in regards to war? The Apostle Paul says that the warfare that Christians participate in are against spiritual conflicts (right vs. wrong, the self vs self-sacrifice). Aside from the crucifixion of Christ, the New Testament portrays soldiers of Rome in very positive elements. Jesus encounters a faithful Gentile Roman commander who has greater faith than any Jewish counterpart (remember, Jesus was Jewish...) he had encounter. Paul uses imagery from the Roman soldier's armor and relays it to how the Christian should carry himself. Cornelius, a member of the Italian/centurion cohort, becomes a Christian and no one commends him to end his position as a soldier.

The commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill" is grossly over interpreted from Hebrew into English. The interpretive structure to the phrase and voice is more akin to "Thou Shall Not Murder In Cold Blood." I am sure that Mush could point this out even further, if we gave him enough beers to get him to remember his Hebrew. (lo teer tsakh)

The controversy of Christians supporting/fighting a war has waged for centuries. It never became an issue for heavy theological discussion until the 300's because Christians were too busy dying at the hands of people who misinterpreted their motives and unwillingness to submit to human-king-authorities.

If we can jump back to WWII, would the same accusation against theists stand? Deidrich Bonhoeffer, a Lutheran theological giant, thought it not only necessary for Christians to join the war effort against the crimes against Jews, Gypsies, the "lame", and the homosexual that Bonhoffer himself sought to assassinate Hitler himself. Eventually, Bonhoeffer was executed by bullet to the brain from an SS Officer.

How can a man interpret a Christian worldview into viewing war as positive? Because of "kingdom ethics" which is how Christianity was designed to operate. How can I impact my neighbor by seeing them through the eyes of Christ? Would it be to do what I see best, even if that best is taking a man's life who is murdering others? Much of classic liberalism stems from the desire to serve the world with the lense of Christian principles of loving one's neighbor. And yes, for every positive example there are probably several negative ones.

The Christian, whether he or she differs on the opinion of heaven, hell, sex, marriage, assumption, miracles, death or war is no more or less a Christian because he or she disagrees with a different sect. Grey areas exist. Some people are right and some are wrong.

But back to the thread at hand!
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Sonthert Newbie

Sonthert

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Like many partisans, the church also supported the Nazis. Many U.S. companies supported the Nazis. Most big guys end up on both sides of every conflict, so that they always end up with the winning side. You can't really propose and stand by the idea that all Christians and all churches were anti-Nazi...

How many wars have a religious theme? Too many. It always seems around every conflict, religion springs up...on the other hand, I never hear about atheists being party to wars. The Nazis were Christians. The Soviets were ostensibly atheists, but we never prepared for war against the atheists, we prepared for war against the Russians or the Soviets, sometimes they were referred to as the godless heathens or the godless Ruskies... but just Russians was enough to worry us, most of the time. In our most recent war on terrorism, we are watching the Muslims...you shouldn't go to the Middle East, because they are trying to kill Christians. Atheists frequently don't have interest in things that other people use as excuses to kill other human beings...we're very very poor killers...since we use reason and don't rely on faith. Edited by Sonthert
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azcoyote Newbie

azcoyote

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TODAY it's 9/11 and America memorializes, meditates and those who believe in god pray. Some make prayers for peace. I pray for victory against the latest incarnation of fascism - global jihadism. I am sad that despite all the blood and treasure we have expended on the war on terror, Bin Laden still taunts us. Why is his head not on a pike? I'll tell you why. We are a nation lead by bitches who do the bidding of large "contactors" corporations that profit from war want it to never end. Our leaders have failed us to deliver justice for us. Bad for business.

Christians, when weighing issues, often ask, What would Jesus do? I don't pretend to know. But King David gives us a clue in Psalm 21. I find comfort in it.
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Foos Newbie

Foos

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QUOTE (azcoyote @ Sep 11 2007, 02:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'll tell you why. We are a nation lead by bitches who do the bidding of large "contactors" corporations that profit from war want it to never end. Our leaders have failed us to deliver justice for us. Bad for business.


1) how does this apply to this topic?
2) why the hell should anyone believe the bs you spout?
3) you sure as hell dont act like a Christian with comments like this.

But then again your free to have your own thoughts.
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garykainz Newbie

garykainz

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QUOTE (ghostofdavid @ Sep 5 2007, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If we can jump back to WWII, would the same accusation against theists stand? Deidrich Bonhoeffer, a Lutheran theological giant, thought it not only necessary for Christians to join the war effort against the crimes against Jews, Gypsies, the "lame", and the homosexual that Bonhoffer himself sought to assassinate Hitler himself. Eventually, Bonhoeffer was executed by bullet to the brain from an SS Officer.


this is way off topic, but i find it interesting that Bonhoeffer can be such an interesting, and over all awesome guy, yet be so adept and writing SNOOZERS! haha
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Cheese// Newbie

Cheese//

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When God said that "thou shalt not kill"
God actually means "thou shalt not kill other Jews"

He seemed to have no problem with killing others in the Old Testament.
I asked a priest about God being a murderer and he told me that God is perfect and does not kill.
When I asked him what it was when God killed the entire world if it wasn't murder, he shrugged the question off. Edited by Cheese//
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powerdragon Newbie

powerdragon

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Various people are a part of certain groups, religion, organizations, etc.. It depends on how someone grows up, for example, I'm not critizising... 911, the people who did that to America were born into and probably taught into hating Americans in particular because of our government system, now because there are so many middle eastern people in America, the people in America come together to form a "group" and anyone that believes strongly in what someone elses beliefs are about people in America from the middle east will go along with it. Some of the best friends I have ever made are Muslum, Egyptian, from the Middle east, etc and I am an American. It's just like if a bunch of Americans went into another country like China for example, and put out a bad name for them, shot people or made a bunch of Ruccus based on a belief system that they strongly believe in, the majority of people in China are going to start to not like Americans thinking they ALL are the same and they ALL believe in the same thing. I am also a Christian and at my church anyone and everyone is welcome and it is not based on religion or ethnicity or anything of that sort. There are so many churches out there that even I have tried to attend and one in particular was a Catholic church, I got yelled at, cursed at, said I was not welcome there and such because my Religion was Christian and there belief system was aparently different, even though we see eye to eye on almost everything, it was the fact that I was not Catholic I guess and to be honest I couldn't believe there was actually churches out there that will not welcome everyone in. Jesus didn't separate everyone based on there belief, he welcomed everyone with open arms and shared more love than anyone will experience in a lifetime. Anyway, my two cents...
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powerdragon Newbie

powerdragon

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And if I don't recall, every event to this day, has been outlined in the bible, the Holocaust, WW2, 911, All these powerful storms on the coasts, they all relate back to a scripture that soooo many people either have no idea about, or are too stubborn to believe in and so they shrug it off, and keep on thinking they are God and outline everything they think is the correct answer and then preach that. The bible is here for a reason and it has changed my life and tons of other people who will sit down and take the time to learn our past. We were not around then, so I am a little confused to why it is so many people think they know the answers to all the worlds questions and no scriptural background to back it up with.
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Foos Newbie

Foos

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QUOTE (powerdragon @ Sep 13 2007, 11:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And if I don't recall, every event to this day, has been outlined in the bible, the Holocaust, WW2, 911, All these powerful storms on the coasts, they all relate back to a scripture that soooo many people either have no idea about, or are too stubborn to believe in and so they shrug it off, and keep on thinking they are God and outline everything they think is the correct answer and then preach that. The bible is here for a reason and it has changed my life and tons of other people who will sit down and take the time to learn our past. We were not around then, so I am a little confused to why it is so many people think they know the answers to all the worlds questions and no scriptural background to back it up with.


Im a little confused as to why your critisizing people who dont believe in the bible or in God. The bible is a collections of STORIES which might or might not be historically accurate. The new testimate is the only part of the bible that could have some accuracy to it and I have yet to meet someone who believes everything written in the bible is what actualy happened. I was raised Catholic but dont really associate myself with a church anymore, Ive never heard of someone being turned away from the church so Id have to call bs on your story there.
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powerdragon Newbie

powerdragon

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As would a lot of people.. It's happened to me and a few of my friends, it's reality. And I know people have different belief systems and different "Bibles", but from talking to friends that are a different religion and don't believe in the Bible, but they believe in their own scriptural background, and each set of scripts ("stories") all pretty much have the same kind of information and outline the events that have happened. And read the Old Testament again my friend, there is much more to it than you obviously know. And I'm sorry if you were offended by my last post, it was not ment as critisizm but as a reality check no matter who you are or where your from. I'm also not BS'ing the church story.
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Cheese// Newbie

Cheese//

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It's not by coincidence or the power of god that prophecies are fulfilled in the New Testament.
Christianity was modeled on the prophecies in the Old Testament. With the truth being twisted and invented to make Christianity seem like the culmination of 1000 year old prophecies.

When Thomas Jefferson was president some Evangelical leaders abridged 4 books from the New Testament because they were considered too fantastical.
Included was the Gospel of Thomas, which documented Jesus as a boisterous youth using his powers to turn his friends into goats etc.
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guyt Newbie

guyt

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Posted (edited)
QUOTE (Cheese// @ Sep 13 2007, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When God said that "thou shalt not kill"
God actually means "thou shalt not kill other Jews"

He seemed to have no problem with killing others in the Old Testament.
I asked a priest about God being a murderer and he told me that God is perfect and does not kill.
When I asked him what it was when God killed the entire world if it wasn't murder, he shrugged the question off.


In the original ten commandment "thou shalt not kill" is "lo tirzach" which means do not murder. The old testament give several legitimate reasons to go to war and kill. I think there are 4 of them but its been a while since I read that book.
-Land
-Money
-Defense
-Killing the enemies of Israel. None of those nations exist anymore but back in the day the leader of the Israel was required to wage war on the Hittites, Plishtim, Akkadians, and a few more.

It is a purely Western view that killing is wrong, period. It's probably because they still use the King James bible which has many misinterpretations and mistakes. Killing is OK, murder is not, there is a very distinct difference.

That's not my personal view, it's just one of the accepted interpretation among Jewish scholars Edited by guyt
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