Molly Norris In Hiding

[noodle]

Molly Norris, the artist who started the meme "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day", has gone into hiding on advice from the FBI.

See [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11337278"]http://www.bbc.co.uk...canada-11337278[/url]

This wouldn't have happened if she advocated "Everybody Draw Buddha" or "Everybody Draw the Bab". There is something seriously wrong in mainstream Islam that allows things like this to happen. Islam badly needs to produce a Martin Luther or John Calvin before it's too late.

[mustafabey]

I'm not going down to the nearest urban ghetto and start calling people n-----s, I am not going to a synagogue and tell people the train to A-------z is leaving. So why would you want to draw cartoons of the Prophet, full well knowing its going to be taken as a grave insult. Yes,Islam is sensitive about this kind of thing. Its not all Islam either, it's the fundamentalists mostly. Its just the idea of doing something people find repugnant, then crying when they get pissed. If you don't piss em off to begin with, then there's no problem. You can blame Islam,if you want, but when you stoop to this kind of behavior you are no better than those who burn flags or holy books

[noodle]

The difference is that drawing a picture of Muhammad is something that in modern times should not be taken as an insult. I am not willing to accept a world where I may only do what radical muslims will permit me to do. When was the last time someone went on a murderous rampage because someone said something mean about Jesus?

[mustafabey]

Noodle said: " something that in modern times should not be taken as an insult."
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So you set yourself up as a determiner of what is modern. And you define insult in your own cultural terms, with little regard for someone else's viewpoint. Respect is far different thing from submission.

[noodle]

People in Western society draw pictures for all sorts of reasons, particularly communication. If some group cannot tolerate pictures being drawn of it or its revered persons for whatever reason, or if it cannot tolerate criticism, then that group is not compatible with Western society. I'm not setting myself up as a judge of anything. I'm just pointing out the way things are. Respect must be earned. Militants have done little more than earn contempt.

[Chreees]

In the Islam culture Muhammad is not depicted all over the place like Jesus is in Christianity. In churches you see Jesus on the cross and on stained glass, but in mosques you do not see Muhammad. Why should we disrespect their religion by drawing Muhammad? That's the issue that you need to understand.

Without tolerance and respect we will never get anywhere in the world as far as peace between different cultures/religions goes.

[noodle]

When you say "In the Islam culture", you seem to be referring to a place that is not in the Western world. We use pictures in the Western world to express ourselves. Radical Muslims have no right to demand that Western society acquiese to their demands that we not use pictures.

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284779989' post='482452']
When you say "In the Islam culture", you seem to be referring to a place that is not in the Western world. We use pictures in the Western world to express ourselves. Radical Muslims have no right to demand that Western society acquiese to their demands that we not use pictures.
[/quote]

Then you would agree the counter is also true? That we do not have the right to assert Western influence in Middle Eastern nations, hmmm? I don't think you have any concept of just how erroneous and offensive your assertion is. The prohibition against drawing spiritual beings including prophets also exists to Orthodox Jews, for example. You say Muslims should have to conform to Western culture, but make no mention of other spiritual doctrine that are similar. How can you not realize that your statement is then a racist (or in this case more accurately, religionist) remark?.

'Rani

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284780514' post='482454']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284779989' post='482452']
When you say "In the Islam culture", you seem to be referring to a place that is not in the Western world. We use pictures in the Western world to express ourselves. Radical Muslims have no right to demand that Western society acquiese to their demands that we not use pictures.
[/quote]

Then you would agree the counter is also true? That we do not have the right to assert Western influence in Middle Eastern nations, hmmm? I don't think you have any concept of just how erroneous and offensive your assertion is. The prohibition against drawing spiritual beings including prophets also exists to Orthodox Jews, for example. You say Muslims should have to conform to Western culture, but make no mention of other spiritual doctrine that are similar. How can you not realize that your statement is then a racist (or in this case more accurately, religionist) remark?.

'Rani
[/quote]

Are you implying that I think it's a good idea for the US to meddle in the affairs of other countries? How often do Orthodox Jews cause a ruckus to force others to conform to their iconoclasm? There is a saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do.". Please explain how this concept is racist or religionist.

[Chreees]

Soooo, why are you expecting Muslim-Americans to be okay with other Americans drawing their prophet?

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284782067' post='482460']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284780514' post='482454']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284779989' post='482452']
When you say "In the Islam culture", you seem to be referring to a place that is not in the Western world. We use pictures in the Western world to express ourselves. Radical Muslims have no right to demand that Western society acquiese to their demands that we not use pictures.
[/quote]

Then you would agree the counter is also true? That we do not have the right to assert Western influence in Middle Eastern nations, hmmm? I don't think you have any concept of just how erroneous and offensive your assertion is. The prohibition against drawing spiritual beings including prophets also exists to Orthodox Jews, for example. You say Muslims should have to conform to Western culture, but make no mention of other spiritual doctrine that are similar. How can you not realize that your statement is then a racist (or in this case more accurately, religionist) remark?.

'Rani
[/quote]

Are you implying that I think it's a good idea for the US to meddle in the affairs of other countries? How often do Orthodox Jews cause a ruckus to force others to conform to their iconoclasm? There is a saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do.". Please explain how this concept is racist or religionist.
[/quote]

Western civilization has [u]never[/u] once in history allowed any respect for traditions of others. Not since the Romans invaded Britain and decimated the Picts, certainly not when an entire hemisphere, already held by an Native population was considered "fair game": by Spanish, British and French who decided their way was better. Never mind that millions of aboriginal people died in the process, and that entire cultures were wiped out. Don't even give me reason to start on the slave trade that chained an entire race for hundreds of years in servitude as chattel. Are you suggesting that Muslims are somehow out of line because they won't willingly go along with decimation of their traditions? Ask any descendant of a Holocaust survivor if not fighting encroachment of their traditions and heritage worked for them. It's not much different from what you're stating here because you are singling out Muslims specifically. Ask the decimated Native Americans, Jews of 1930's Germany, African people and on down through history. Being quiet when your traditions and beliefs are disrespected is historically the first step to wiping you out entirely. So I'm thinking, yeah, it's justified to get a little loud when your traditions and heritage are being disrespected. Doing so might mean your very survival.

I'm giving you some credit when I say that I don't think you realize that your statement implies that somehow "modern" is better or superior to a revered tradition. But modern isn't automatically better. It's just younger. There is justification for their beliefs - that the transcendent of God cannot be explained or pictured and that by doing so personifies and diminishes the entire immanent and unexplained omnipotence that we call God. Contrary to what many people and the fear crazed media would have you believe, Muslims don't want to turn the entire world Islamic. They just want their beliefs respected and given the same honor we give other beliefs. And if they don't have a right to demand that, then you don't have the right to demand it for yourself.

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284765132' post='482437']
The difference is that drawing a picture of Muhammad is something that in modern times should not be taken as an insult. I am not willing to accept a world where I may only do what radical muslims will permit me to do. When was the last time someone went on a murderous rampage because someone said something mean about Jesus?
[/quote]

That's because the vast majority of Islam is stuck in the 8th century, and it's never coming out.

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1284784159' post='482464']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284765132' post='482437']
The difference is that drawing a picture of Muhammad is something that in modern times should not be taken as an insult. I am not willing to accept a world where I may only do what radical muslims will permit me to do. When was the last time someone went on a murderous rampage because someone said something mean about Jesus?
[/quote]

That's because the vast majority of Islam is stuck in the 8th century, and it's never coming out.
[/quote]

Obviously you don't know many Muslims.

'Rani

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284784053' post='482463']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284782067' post='482460']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284780514' post='482454']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284779989' post='482452']
When you say "In the Islam culture", you seem to be referring to a place that is not in the Western world. We use pictures in the Western world to express ourselves. Radical Muslims have no right to demand that Western society acquiese to their demands that we not use pictures.
[/quote]

Then you would agree the counter is also true? That we do not have the right to assert Western influence in Middle Eastern nations, hmmm? I don't think you have any concept of just how erroneous and offensive your assertion is. The prohibition against drawing spiritual beings including prophets also exists to Orthodox Jews, for example. You say Muslims should have to conform to Western culture, but make no mention of other spiritual doctrine that are similar. How can you not realize that your statement is then a racist (or in this case more accurately, religionist) remark?.

'Rani
[/quote]

Are you implying that I think it's a good idea for the US to meddle in the affairs of other countries? How often do Orthodox Jews cause a ruckus to force others to conform to their iconoclasm? There is a saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do.". Please explain how this concept is racist or religionist.
[/quote]

Western civilization has [u]never[/u] once in history allowed any respect for traditions of others. Not since the Romans invaded Britain and decimated the Picts, certainly not when an entire hemisphere, already held by an Native population was considered "fair game": by Spanish, British and French who decided their way was better. Never mind that millions of aboriginal people died in the process, and that entire cultures were wiped out. Don't even give me reason to start on the slave trade that chained an entire race for hundreds of years in servitude as chattel. Are you suggesting that Muslims are somehow out of line because they won't willingly go along with decimation of their traditions? Ask any descendant of a Holocaust survivor if not fighting encroachment of their traditions and heritage worked for them. It's not much different from what you're stating here because you are singling out Muslims specifically. Ask the decimated Native Americans, Jews of 1930's Germany, African people and on down through history. Being quiet when your traditions and beliefs are disrespected is historically the first step to wiping you out entirely. So I'm thinking, yeah, it's justified to get a little loud when your traditions and heritage are being disrespected. Doing so might mean your very survival.

I'm giving you some credit when I say that I don't think you realize that your statement implies that somehow "modern" is better or superior to a revered tradition. But modern isn't automatically better. It's just younger. There is justification for their beliefs - that the transcendent of God cannot be explained or pictured and that by doing so personifies and diminishes the entire immanent and unexplained omnipotence that we call God. Contrary to what many people and the fear crazed media would have you believe, Muslims don't want to turn the entire world Islamic. They just want their beliefs respected and given the same honor we give other beliefs. And if they don't have a right to demand that, then you don't have the right to demand it for yourself.

'Rani
[/quote]

I'm interested in what's happening now. Remember the mistakes of the past, but don't wallow in them. Muslims are out of line because they're trying to enter the Western world, but refuse to abide by the rules thereof.

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284785967' post='482468']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284784053' post='482463']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284782067' post='482460']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284780514' post='482454']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284779989' post='482452']
When you say "In the Islam culture", you seem to be referring to a place that is not in the Western world. We use pictures in the Western world to express ourselves. Radical Muslims have no right to demand that Western society acquiese to their demands that we not use pictures.
[/quote]

Then you would agree the counter is also true? That we do not have the right to assert Western influence in Middle Eastern nations, hmmm? I don't think you have any concept of just how erroneous and offensive your assertion is. The prohibition against drawing spiritual beings including prophets also exists to Orthodox Jews, for example. You say Muslims should have to conform to Western culture, but make no mention of other spiritual doctrine that are similar. How can you not realize that your statement is then a racist (or in this case more accurately, religionist) remark?.

'Rani
[/quote]

Are you implying that I think it's a good idea for the US to meddle in the affairs of other countries? How often do Orthodox Jews cause a ruckus to force others to conform to their iconoclasm? There is a saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do.". Please explain how this concept is racist or religionist.
[/quote]

Western civilization has [u]never[/u] once in history allowed any respect for traditions of others. Not since the Romans invaded Britain and decimated the Picts, certainly not when an entire hemisphere, already held by an Native population was considered "fair game": by Spanish, British and French who decided their way was better. Never mind that millions of aboriginal people died in the process, and that entire cultures were wiped out. Don't even give me reason to start on the slave trade that chained an entire race for hundreds of years in servitude as chattel. Are you suggesting that Muslims are somehow out of line because they won't willingly go along with decimation of their traditions? Ask any descendant of a Holocaust survivor if not fighting encroachment of their traditions and heritage worked for them. It's not much different from what you're stating here because you are singling out Muslims specifically. Ask the decimated Native Americans, Jews of 1930's Germany, African people and on down through history. Being quiet when your traditions and beliefs are disrespected is historically the first step to wiping you out entirely. So I'm thinking, yeah, it's justified to get a little loud when your traditions and heritage are being disrespected. Doing so might mean your very survival.

I'm giving you some credit when I say that I don't think you realize that your statement implies that somehow "modern" is better or superior to a revered tradition. But modern isn't automatically better. It's just younger. There is justification for their beliefs - that the transcendent of God cannot be explained or pictured and that by doing so personifies and diminishes the entire immanent and unexplained omnipotence that we call God. Contrary to what many people and the fear crazed media would have you believe, Muslims don't want to turn the entire world Islamic. They just want their beliefs respected and given the same honor we give other beliefs. And if they don't have a right to demand that, then you don't have the right to demand it for yourself.

'Rani
[/quote]

I'm interested in what's happening now. Remember the mistakes of the past, but don't wallow in them. Muslims are out of line because they're trying to enter the Western world, but refuse to abide by the rules thereof.
[/quote]

I call cop-out. There are no "rules" about "We [u]must[/u] make drawings of spiritual figures".. You're scrambling and grumbling under your breath because you do not have a defensible position on this subject. What's more,. this woman didn't make a drawing of Mohammed. She tried to start a movement that she knew would anger an entire group of people. Go to downtown Compton and call a few brothers by the "N" word and let me know how that works out for you.

'Rani

[Chreees]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284785967' post='482468']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284784053' post='482463']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284782067' post='482460']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284780514' post='482454']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284779989' post='482452']
When you say "In the Islam culture", you seem to be referring to a place that is not in the Western world. We use pictures in the Western world to express ourselves. Radical Muslims have no right to demand that Western society acquiese to their demands that we not use pictures.
[/quote]

Then you would agree the counter is also true? That we do not have the right to assert Western influence in Middle Eastern nations, hmmm? I don't think you have any concept of just how erroneous and offensive your assertion is. The prohibition against drawing spiritual beings including prophets also exists to Orthodox Jews, for example. You say Muslims should have to conform to Western culture, but make no mention of other spiritual doctrine that are similar. How can you not realize that your statement is then a racist (or in this case more accurately, religionist) remark?.

'Rani
[/quote]

Are you implying that I think it's a good idea for the US to meddle in the affairs of other countries? How often do Orthodox Jews cause a ruckus to force others to conform to their iconoclasm? There is a saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do.". Please explain how this concept is racist or religionist.
[/quote]

Western civilization has [u]never[/u] once in history allowed any respect for traditions of others. Not since the Romans invaded Britain and decimated the Picts, certainly not when an entire hemisphere, already held by an Native population was considered "fair game": by Spanish, British and French who decided their way was better. Never mind that millions of aboriginal people died in the process, and that entire cultures were wiped out. Don't even give me reason to start on the slave trade that chained an entire race for hundreds of years in servitude as chattel. Are you suggesting that Muslims are somehow out of line because they won't willingly go along with decimation of their traditions? Ask any descendant of a Holocaust survivor if not fighting encroachment of their traditions and heritage worked for them. It's not much different from what you're stating here because you are singling out Muslims specifically. Ask the decimated Native Americans, Jews of 1930's Germany, African people and on down through history. Being quiet when your traditions and beliefs are disrespected is historically the first step to wiping you out entirely. So I'm thinking, yeah, it's justified to get a little loud when your traditions and heritage are being disrespected. Doing so might mean your very survival.

I'm giving you some credit when I say that I don't think you realize that your statement implies that somehow "modern" is better or superior to a revered tradition. But modern isn't automatically better. It's just younger. There is justification for their beliefs - that the transcendent of God cannot be explained or pictured and that by doing so personifies and diminishes the entire immanent and unexplained omnipotence that we call God. Contrary to what many people and the fear crazed media would have you believe, Muslims don't want to turn the entire world Islamic. They just want their beliefs respected and given the same honor we give other beliefs. And if they don't have a right to demand that, then you don't have the right to demand it for yourself.

'Rani
[/quote]

I'm interested in what's happening now. Remember the mistakes of the past, but don't wallow in them. Muslims are out of line because they're trying to enter the Western world, but refuse to abide by the rules thereof.
[/quote]

It's a RULE that they should allow their prophet to be drawn? Wow...

[joytron]

I think the issue has more to do with respect. We need to take a look at the motives behind Molly Norris. Her actions had nothing to do with freedom, it had everything to do with deliberately angering a specific group of people. You are telling me that if I insulted your mother, your wife, your daughter, you would agree that by retaliating you are not compatible with western society?

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284786712' post='482469']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284785967' post='482468']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284784053' post='482463']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284782067' post='482460']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284780514' post='482454']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284779989' post='482452']
When you say "In the Islam culture", you seem to be referring to a place that is not in the Western world. We use pictures in the Western world to express ourselves. Radical Muslims have no right to demand that Western society acquiese to their demands that we not use pictures.
[/quote]

Then you would agree the counter is also true? That we do not have the right to assert Western influence in Middle Eastern nations, hmmm? I don't think you have any concept of just how erroneous and offensive your assertion is. The prohibition against drawing spiritual beings including prophets also exists to Orthodox Jews, for example. You say Muslims should have to conform to Western culture, but make no mention of other spiritual doctrine that are similar. How can you not realize that your statement is then a racist (or in this case more accurately, religionist) remark?.

'Rani
[/quote]

Are you implying that I think it's a good idea for the US to meddle in the affairs of other countries? How often do Orthodox Jews cause a ruckus to force others to conform to their iconoclasm? There is a saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do.". Please explain how this concept is racist or religionist.
[/quote]

Western civilization has [u]never[/u] once in history allowed any respect for traditions of others. Not since the Romans invaded Britain and decimated the Picts, certainly not when an entire hemisphere, already held by an Native population was considered "fair game": by Spanish, British and French who decided their way was better. Never mind that millions of aboriginal people died in the process, and that entire cultures were wiped out. Don't even give me reason to start on the slave trade that chained an entire race for hundreds of years in servitude as chattel. Are you suggesting that Muslims are somehow out of line because they won't willingly go along with decimation of their traditions? Ask any descendant of a Holocaust survivor if not fighting encroachment of their traditions and heritage worked for them. It's not much different from what you're stating here because you are singling out Muslims specifically. Ask the decimated Native Americans, Jews of 1930's Germany, African people and on down through history. Being quiet when your traditions and beliefs are disrespected is historically the first step to wiping you out entirely. So I'm thinking, yeah, it's justified to get a little loud when your traditions and heritage are being disrespected. Doing so might mean your very survival.

I'm giving you some credit when I say that I don't think you realize that your statement implies that somehow "modern" is better or superior to a revered tradition. But modern isn't automatically better. It's just younger. There is justification for their beliefs - that the transcendent of God cannot be explained or pictured and that by doing so personifies and diminishes the entire immanent and unexplained omnipotence that we call God. Contrary to what many people and the fear crazed media would have you believe, Muslims don't want to turn the entire world Islamic. They just want their beliefs respected and given the same honor we give other beliefs. And if they don't have a right to demand that, then you don't have the right to demand it for yourself.

'Rani
[/quote]

I'm interested in what's happening now. Remember the mistakes of the past, but don't wallow in them. Muslims are out of line because they're trying to enter the Western world, but refuse to abide by the rules thereof.
[/quote]

I call cop-out. There are no "rules" about "We [u]must[/u] make drawings of spiritual figures".. You're scrambling and grumbling under your breath because you do not have a defensible position on this subject. What's more,. this woman didn't make a drawing of Mohammed. She tried to start a movement that she knew would anger an entire group of people. Go to downtown Compton and call a few brothers by the "N" word and let me know how that works out for you.

'Rani
[/quote]

Let me state it another way.

If you want to function in Western society, you must be prepared to see pictures being drawn to illustrate points. You can expect any subject to be discussed and criticized with a hostile intent. If you cannot tolerate these basic facts, then you don't belong in Western society.

[noodle]

[quote name='joytron' timestamp='1284822752' post='482490']
I think the issue has more to do with respect. We need to take a look at the motives behind Molly Norris. Her actions had nothing to do with freedom, it had everything to do with deliberately angering a specific group of people. You are telling me that if I insulted your mother, your wife, your daughter, you would agree that by retaliating you are not compatible with western society?
[/quote]

It seemed pretty clear to me that her actions were to call attention to the intolerance that radical Muslims have for criticism of their religion.

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284828889' post='482494']
[quote name='joytron' timestamp='1284822752' post='482490']
I think the issue has more to do with respect. We need to take a look at the motives behind Molly Norris. Her actions had nothing to do with freedom, it had everything to do with deliberately angering a specific group of people. You are telling me that if I insulted your mother, your wife, your daughter, you would agree that by retaliating you are not compatible with western society?
[/quote]

It seemed pretty clear to me that her actions were to call attention to the intolerance that radical Muslims have for criticism of their religion.
[/quote]

You can't make that judgement call because you don't know her mind or her intentions. They may even have originally been positive and ended up being taken entirely differently than she intended. (Though since there has been no public apology for the disrespect, it's relatively safe to assume her intention was to stir up trouble.) Until you can read her mind, you have no idea what her intentions were. Here's the biggest part of the problem. Islam has become in Western minds synonymous with Middle Eastern culture. But they are not one and the same. A Muslim from a small village in Afghanistan is different from the Muslim in a metropolis in United Arab Emirates, and they're both different from the Muslim in Pakistan, and American Muslims are different as well.. Just as the Southern Baptist is different from the Seventh Day Adventists, yet both are Christians. We have very traditional people living in the West as well as you'd know if you ever visited, for example, the Ozark Mountains. Show up uninvited just by getting lost and they may never find your body, never mind what your intentions were. Yet in NYC or LA, people by the million may be passing each other on the street. To say Muslims are this or that is completely inaccurate. Yet there are people in the West who because of their assumptions that Islam and Middle Eastern villages are synonymous, blanket Islam with the assumption that it's traditions are as "backward" as the remote village the associate Islam with. This mental association seems to give some people carte blanch to disrespect them.

And the point everyone has been trying to make to you, is that it's not alright to do so. And honestly I have no sympathy for her. She could have easily assuaged the situation by going to the nearest Iman and working to calm the turmoil. But she chooses not to do that. And now she's got the "poor me" thing going on and honestly she doesn't deserve it. You don't get to slap people in the face and then whine like a little bitch about it when they slap you back.

And when you think about it, what's more ridiculous than sitting on a hookah forum and bitching about Middle Eastern sensitivity. If any of us don't like Middle Eastern traditions then what the hell are we doing smoking a hookah?

'Rani

[mustafabey]

[quote name='joytron' timestamp='1284822752' post='482490']
I think the issue has more to do with respect. We need to take a look at the motives behind Molly Norris. Her actions had nothing to do with freedom, it had everything to do with deliberately angering a specific group of people.

[/quote]

Exactly!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Noodle said: "If you want to function in Western society, you must be prepared to see pictures being drawn to illustrate points."
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
These people want to function in their own society, not "Western" society. Anyway its about respect pure and simple.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Rani: " Go to downtown Compton and call a few brothers by the "N" word and let me know how that works out for you."
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There you go, experimental ethnic hubris, go try that and see how it works

[mustafabey]

I didn't want to open up another thread for this bit from CNN. Not a big deal by me, but will the Christians accept it? Maybe, as long as it isn't Islam.

[mustafabey]

OK won't accept my link to CNN

In a nutshell, apparently Christine O'Donnell dabbled in witchcraft in the 90's Its on CNN's ticker if you want to see it

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284837815' post='482502']
You can't make that judgement call because you don't know her mind or her intentions. They may even have originally been positive and ended up being taken entirely differently than she intended. (Though since there has been no public apology for the disrespect, it's relatively safe to assume her intention was to stir up trouble.) Until you can read her mind, you have no idea what her intentions were. Here's the biggest part of the problem. Islam has become in Western minds synonymous with Middle Eastern culture. But they are not one and the same. A Muslim from a small village in Afghanistan is different from the Muslim in a metropolis in United Arab Emirates, and they're both different from the Muslim in Pakistan, and American Muslims are different as well.. Just as the Southern Baptist is different from the Seventh Day Adventists, yet both are Christians. We have very traditional people living in the West as well as you'd know if you ever visited, for example, the Ozark Mountains. Show up uninvited just by getting lost and they may never find your body, never mind what your intentions were. Yet in NYC or LA, people by the million may be passing each other on the street. To say Muslims are this or that is completely inaccurate. Yet there are people in the West who because of their assumptions that Islam and Middle Eastern villages are synonymous, blanket Islam with the assumption that it's traditions are as "backward" as the remote village the associate Islam with. This mental association seems to give some people carte blanch to disrespect them.

And the point everyone has been trying to make to you, is that it's not alright to do so. And honestly I have no sympathy for her. She could have easily assuaged the situation by going to the nearest Iman and working to calm the turmoil. But she chooses not to do that. And now she's got the "poor me" thing going on and honestly she doesn't deserve it. You don't get to slap people in the face and then whine like a little bitch about it when they slap you back.

And when you think about it, what's more ridiculous than sitting on a hookah forum and bitching about Middle Eastern sensitivity. If any of us don't like Middle Eastern traditions then what the hell are we doing smoking a hookah?

'Rani
[/quote]

Labeling something as "backwards" usually means that a society has strong characteristics that the rest of the world disposed of long ago for whatever reason. Iconoclasm, for instance, is backwards because of the need to communicate and criticize in the world today. Europe had a stint of that in the 16th century. You associated making pictures of Muhammad with talking trash in front of a gangster. Those are two very different things. Trash-talking is actively trying to get someone's goat. Making pictures of something is for communication and criticism. Iconoclasm has no place in modern society.

Just because someone enjoys some piece of some other culture doesn't mean that someone has no problems with it.

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284875593' post='482538']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284837815' post='482502']
You can't make that judgement call because you don't know her mind or her intentions. They may even have originally been positive and ended up being taken entirely differently than she intended. (Though since there has been no public apology for the disrespect, it's relatively safe to assume her intention was to stir up trouble.) Until you can read her mind, you have no idea what her intentions were. Here's the biggest part of the problem. Islam has become in Western minds synonymous with Middle Eastern culture. But they are not one and the same. A Muslim from a small village in Afghanistan is different from the Muslim in a metropolis in United Arab Emirates, and they're both different from the Muslim in Pakistan, and American Muslims are different as well.. Just as the Southern Baptist is different from the Seventh Day Adventists, yet both are Christians. We have very traditional people living in the West as well as you'd know if you ever visited, for example, the Ozark Mountains. Show up uninvited just by getting lost and they may never find your body, never mind what your intentions were. Yet in NYC or LA, people by the million may be passing each other on the street. To say Muslims are this or that is completely inaccurate. Yet there are people in the West who because of their assumptions that Islam and Middle Eastern villages are synonymous, blanket Islam with the assumption that it's traditions are as "backward" as the remote village the associate Islam with. This mental association seems to give some people carte blanch to disrespect them.

And the point everyone has been trying to make to you, is that it's not alright to do so. And honestly I have no sympathy for her. She could have easily assuaged the situation by going to the nearest Iman and working to calm the turmoil. But she chooses not to do that. And now she's got the "poor me" thing going on and honestly she doesn't deserve it. You don't get to slap people in the face and then whine like a little bitch about it when they slap you back.

And when you think about it, what's more ridiculous than sitting on a hookah forum and bitching about Middle Eastern sensitivity. If any of us don't like Middle Eastern traditions then what the hell are we doing smoking a hookah?

'Rani
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Labeling something as "backwards" usually means that a society has strong characteristics that the rest of the world disposed of long ago for whatever reason. Iconoclasm, for instance, is backwards because of the need to communicate and criticize in the world today. Europe had a stint of that in the 16th century. You associated making pictures of Muhammad with talking trash in front of a gangster. Those are two very different things. Trash-talking is actively trying to get someone's goat. Making pictures of something is for communication and criticism. Iconoclasm has no place in modern society.

Just because someone enjoys some piece of some other culture doesn't mean that someone has no problems with it.
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You don't get it and honestly I don't think you're going to. Your "way" isn't automatically right. Your opinion is valuable only to you. And I don't mean that in an insulting way, but as an informative statement that is true of everyone. Your perception of what's "right" comes from where you in particular stand. Someone standing at a different perspective thinks they're equally right. And there's no way you can say they are not. Nor can they say you are not. You are right to yourself and I'm right to myself. You aren't happy at being misunderstood. Yet you insist that Muslim are "wrong" because they choose to say "don't do something we find it insulting". You can't tell them they're wrong. They're right from their perspective. That's what tolerance is. Knowing that your beliefs and opinions come from your own perspective and may not be identical to others. You do not find it insulting to see drawings of the Prophet. Okay, good for you. Some else finds it demeaning and insulting, and they are also right. If you expect your opinion and perspective to be tolerated, why can you not also allow them their perspective and opinion?

And once again, you jumped to some major erroneous conclusions. Gangsters? When on earth did I mention talking trash to gangsters? I mentioned a well-known ethnic neighborhood and use of an ethnically insulting word. Compton is quite a prosperous city. It's 10 minutes from me and has excellent restaurants, housing and night life. Your assumption it's filled with nothing but gangsters is once again, insulting.

May I ask how old you are? Because I'm guessing you're quite young. And no, that's not a "you're young therefore you must be stupid" kind of question. I'm asking because it's only in the very young that we have the arrogance to believe we're completely right in our views and that all other ways can't possibly be right. (Yes, we old farts once had the same ideas you do.) Usually we outgrow it from experience with other cultures and traditions. We did. You will too.

'Rani