Michael Moore "sicko"

[Zildjian]

I thought it was an excellent movie. Very well done, very funny and interesting. I am a liberal and enjoy michael moore HOWEVER i also understand whenever you watch a political movie like this they want you to see it there way and will produce, and sometimes spin, statistics in their favor. I have seen movies that go the otherway as well, and while still astonishing and interesting, I understand and accept that they go one way. Take any of these movies with a grain of salt and do not completely 100% trust any of them. My 2 cents.

[Scalliwag]

It does not change the fact that he was a guilty POS.

If you're referring to Dwyer, there is actually strong evidence that he was innocent of the charges against him, and he was set up by John Torquato, Jr. and Republican Party Chairman William Smith to take the fall with a maximum sentence so that they could plea bargain and walk away.

Well from all I read he looked guilty. All we know is this ball-less coward blew his brains out on live TV so even little kids saw this happen from what I read of the live broadcast it caught them by such surprise they did not cut off quick enough.
The people he wined and dined with may very well have set him up, but you usually sense when people are snakes so you have to be careful who you hang with.

[manntis]

Well from all I read he looked guilty. All we know is this ball-less coward blew his brains out on live TV so even little kids saw this happen from what I read of the live broadcast it caught them by such surprise they did not cut off quick enough.
The people he wined and dined with may very well have set him up, but you usually sense when people are snakes so you have to be careful who you hang with.

Then what you know is wrong. It wasn't live TV, it was taped. Most stations aired it only up to the shot, some kept the audio playing while freeze-framing on the picture of him with the gun in his mouth, and only a few stations such as Philidelphia WPVI aired the whole thing - and all of it mid afternoon when most kids would be in school. Unfortunately a lot of schools were closed due to snow and some children did see the WPVI feed. The evening broadcasts on the 6 o'clock news were more edited.

Furthermore, he was the man liaising between the Pennsylvania government and the company charged with handling the FICA tax records snarl, so of course they'd have contact with him. To say he chose to "wine and dine" with him is a gross oversimplification.

[MechAnt]

scalli, that was probably the most disturbing thing i've ever seen in my life. I don't like you for it

[Scalliwag]

Well from all I read he looked guilty. All we know is this ball-less coward blew his brains out on live TV so even little kids saw this happen from what I read of the live broadcast it caught them by such surprise they did not cut off quick enough.
The people he wined and dined with may very well have set him up, but you usually sense when people are snakes so you have to be careful who you hang with.

Then what you know is wrong. It wasn't live TV, it was taped. Most stations aired it only up to the shot, some kept the audio playing while freeze-framing on the picture of him with the gun in his mouth, and only a few stations such as Philidelphia WPVI aired the whole thing - and all of it mid afternoon when most kids would be in school. Unfortunately a lot of schools were closed due to snow and some children did see the WPVI feed. The evening broadcasts on the 6 o'clock news were more edited.

Furthermore, he was the man liaising between the Pennsylvania government and the company charged with handling the FICA tax records snarl, so of course they'd have contact with him. To say he chose to "wine and dine" with him is a gross oversimplification.

From what I read it was live broadcast. He was tried and convicted and about to be sentenced. If they had evidence he was not involved then he should have fought for an appeal. He must not have had much faith in the appeals process or he would have hung around to clear his name and if nothing else not put his family and friends through that.

[Scalliwag]

scalli, that was probably the most disturbing thing i've ever seen in my life. I don't like you for it

sorry Mech I wasn't bs'ing when I said it was bad. The cameraman must have been a combat vet because he just kept rolling like it was just another day at the office.
As far as people capping themselves over criminal cases they are usually guilty or had a damn good idea something was not right.
Whenever the Enron scandal first broke and one of the top guys blew his brains out did so because he knew exactly what was going on. But Skilling, Lay, and the rest of his cronies decided to hang and try and bullshit their way out of it regardless of the proof.
Just like some people swear there was never a holocaust there will always be people to argue the opposite argument of any event.

I know if I was Dwyer and I got framed and was going to go down that I would put a hit on the people that did it before I did what he did.

[manntis]

As far as people capping themselves over criminal cases they are usually guilty or had a damn good idea something was not right.

Dwyer had exhausted his funds for legal defense and was out of options. He shot himself the day before sentencing so his wife could collect benefits of a spouse of a sitting member of Pennsylvania's government, else she would have been left deep in debt from their legal fight as well.

And it was taped - read up on it Edited November 18, 2007 by manntis

[Sonthert]

I watched it...waited until it came out on DVD.

Obviously, some of Moore's points were deceptive. Most countries are overall happy with their socialized medical care. People don't die for the most part, in the US, because they don't have healthcare...there are free government health care...which do suck compared to private ones. Criticize government bureaucracy, if you want, but nothing could be more expensive and inefficient than the U.S.'s medical system. What is real is the leading cause of bankruptcies are from medical bills. That shouldn't be the case.

If you were a person who said "Government is inefficient and ineffective" or something like that or "Socialized programs don't work". Check again. There are lots of government programs and institutions that work fine. Just not the ones with greedy, corrupt politicians attached to them. Firefighters are a socialized service. Are we unhappy with firefighters? Do they not do a good job? Of course they're good. Government service...socialism...oooohh! What about drinking water. The U.S. system of water distribution is the most efficient and largest in the world...socialized, only partially subsidized by user fees. When the forces of neo-con want you to see how bad government is so we lower taxes and get less government services, they'll tell you what you want to hear. They'll say "Government doesn't work". If that is the case, we should look at the largest expense of the U.S....defense...Bush and the other Neo-Con champions tried to cut pay for active U.S. military...but companies like Halliburton still get a lion-share of the contracts. What does Halliburton do? They're contractors. That is, Halliburton gets a 10M$ contract, they hire 3 or 4 other companies to do the work and give them 8M$...if the government stopped these crooked defense contractors by simply routing around them and hiring those 3 or 4 companies directly, we could get more stuff for our tax dollars. Companies like Halliburton produce...NOTHING. They just take taxpayer money because of their political connections and get richer. I look at it this way...count the corporate board rooms...the more between you and your product/service, the more screwed you are getting. What's going to be more expensive...going to a farmer and buying a steak from a cow he just butchered or going to a restaurant and buying a steak...count the board rooms...the restaurant is likely a corporation...they bought it from a wholesale market (boardroom:2), who got it from a wholesaler (3) who got it from another wholesaler where the farmer is (4) who bought it from the farmer. Local businesses will give you better products for the same money, IMO. Its because the extra money that goes to corporate. The conservative viewpoint claims economies of scale makes it cheaper...in some cases I can see that to be true. It makes no sense to have each person refining their own oil. Most of the time, that is absolutely false. Economies of scale are negative, making things more expensive through wider distribution...Why is it that in the last 50 years, large companies are getting bigger and smaller companies are getting squashed? At the same time, average wages for the bottom 80% of the population have continued to decline and the quality of the products we use and live with each day have gotten worse. Big companies get bigger, people get less money and poorer quality products...doesn't seem like a good trend. So, now, we propose that the health giants continue to run health care? Thats a joke. The increases in lifespan peaked 30 years ago and they are going down again...big health care has failed. They are making money, but not helping us to get better, as a society. We need to seriously overhaul the medical system. Why do we allow medicine to be for profit anyways? Why shouldn't it be a non-profit system? Socialized medical care or overhauling a for-profit system...either way, but the current system sucks.

The problem is, with the neo-con agenda, they want to reduce and eliminate government to increase the number of profit opportunities there are for companies. At the cost of the tax-payer. Privatization and deregulation figure prominently into this. Roads are awful and bridges collapse like the one in MN because people have been tricked into this knee-jerk "Lower taxes". There is no such thing as a water shortage...there is such a thing as not enough reservoirs. More taxes would eliminate water shortages. The Neo-Con and conservative christian people want to cut money for public schools and want voucher programs so tax dollars can go to schools that violate the Constitution of the U.S.A. Cuts in school education money make worse educations which make people want to move their children to private institutions and make them less likely to vote to increase taxes to help those public schools.

Believing that countries are moving away from socialism is naive at best. China is still socialist. They are big, strong and getting stronger. Cuba is a global leader in bio-tech development. All of Europe has socialized medical care. (Germany?) Why is that? If its such a failure, how come China is getting bigger and the U.S. is getting dogged? We are nowhere near the power, prestige or influence we had 30 years ago. What about Japan? Japan has a modified socialist society. They have government subsidized industries...and they are kicking the hell out of us. The price of labor is the only thing that seems to be slowing them down. We remember the old Soviet Union that allowed you to vote...for one candidate. There are a number of Socialist countries that employ democracy with great frequency. Are they better than the U.S.? no. No better. I like what Jack Kennedy had to say in the matter, our system can compete ideologically with other systems, we don't need military might to enforce it. Sitting around pissing on ideologies because they are different than our own is silly. They are like hookah tobacco companies...they have their good points and their bad points. Like anything else, all things in moderation. Pure socialism is pure stupidity. Equally, pure free-market capitalism is pure stupidity. Moderation. A blend of each...what works the best. We have lots of socialist institutions in the U.S., we're happy with...so happy, we forget that they are socialism. Edited November 24, 2007 by Sonthert

[Christama]

I just wish the US had something. A year ago i cut my leg pretty badly riding a bicycle. It was from the bottom of my kneecap to the middle or so of my shin. About 6 or so inches total. I went to the hospital. When they found out I didn't have insurance, I was told I would need to pay them out of pocket. OK, I thought to myself, I've got a credit card and some money set aside. When I asked for a rough idea of how much it was going to cost, I was told that for anesthesia to make the cut numb, flushing it, 25 or so stitches and antibiotics, I would be looking at nearly $3000!! Now, being 22 years old and not having that much money, I had to tell them I couldn't afford it, and they said I probably wouldn't get any Medi-cade, and I would have to be put on a payment program. I, as politely as I could, told them to "fuck off", went to Wal-Mart and picked up some bandages, ointment and rubbing alcohol. I know have a gnarly scar that took 5 months to heal. Edited December 10, 2007 by Christama

[smoker6146]

I just wish the US had something. A year ago i cut my leg pretty badly riding a bicycle. It was from the bottom of my kneecap to the middle or so of my shin. About 6 or so inches total. I went to the hospital. When they found out I didn't have insurance, I was told I would need to pay them out of pocket. OK, I thought to myself, I've got a credit card and some money set aside. When I asked for a rough idea of how much it was going to cost, I was told that for anesthesia to make the cut numb, flushing it, 25 or so stitches and antibiotics, I would be looking at nearly $3000!! Now, being 22 years old and not having that much money, I had to tell them I couldn't afford it, and they said I probably wouldn't get any Medi-cade, and I would have to be put on a payment program. I, as politely as I could, told them to "fuck off", went to Wal-Mart and picked up some bandages, ointment and rubbing alcohol. I know have a gnarly scar that took 5 months to heal.

Take a look at Ron Paul's stance on Health Care.

It's the absolute best out of any canidates, and it throws socialized medicine out the window.


RON PAUL ON HEALTH CARE

The federal government decided long ago that it knew how to manage your health care better than you and replaced personal responsibility and accountability with a system that puts corporate interests first. Our free market health care system that was once the envy of the world became a federally-managed disaster.

Few people realize that Congress forced Health Maintenance Organizations (HMOs) on us. HMOs rose to prominence through federal legislation, incentives, and coercion.

Now, the Food and Drug Administration's bias toward large pharmaceutical companies enlarges their power, limits treatment options, and drives consumers to seek Canadian medicines. Regulations from D.C. make it virtually impossible for small business owners to cover their employees. The unemployed often cannot afford insurance, meaning those who need basic medical attention overcrowd emergency rooms and drive up premiums.

The federal government will not suddenly become efficient managers if universal health care is instituted. Government health care only means long waiting periods, lack of choice, poor quality, and frustration. Many Canadians, fed up with socialized medicine, come to the U.S. in order to obtain care. Socialized medicine will not magically work here.

Health care should not be left up to HMOs, big drug companies, and government bureaucrats.

It is time to take back our health care. This is why I support:

• Making all medical expenses tax deductible.
• Eliminating federal regulations that discourage small businesses from providing coverage.
• Giving doctors the freedom to collectively negotiate with insurance companies and drive down the cost of medical care.
• Making every American eligible for a Health Savings Account (HSA), and removing the requirement that individuals must obtain a high-deductible insurance policy before opening an HSA.
• Reform licensure requirements so that pharmacists and nurses can perform some basic functions to increase access to care and lower costs.

By removing federal regulations, encouraging competition, and presenting real choices, we can make our health care system the envy of the world once again. Edited December 10, 2007 by smoker6146

[joseph*]

Ummm, I don't see how Ron Paul is going to solve anything. If someone's child has cancer, or some other sever health problem, or some sort of chronic illness that will last a lifetime, Ron Paul's suggestions wouldn't cover anything. Every other industrialized western country has government provided health care. American's like to claim they are smart, but every one else has manged to arrange something yet we are too stupid too.

[smoker6146]

Ummm, I don't see how Ron Paul is going to solve anything. If someone's child has cancer, or some other sever health problem, or some sort of chronic illness that will last a lifetime, Ron Paul's suggestions wouldn't cover anything. Every other industrialized western country has government provided health care. American's like to claim they are smart, but every one else has manged to arrange something yet we are too stupid too.

If you can't understand how his plan will work, then I don't think there's much I can tell you.

What I can tell you, is socialized medicine will not work in our country and it is NOT the best solution for us.
That is a plain and simple fact.

And you know what? Even if it did work, I still wouldn't want it.

If your kid has cancer, that sucks, I feel sorry for you and your child. But it's not my god damn problem and I'll be damned if someone tells me I have to give up a portion of my paycheck for you.

Of course, maybe Ron Paul is wrong, I mean, what does he know right?
He's only delivered 4000+ babies as a doctor for 50 years. There's no way he knows anything about Health Care. Hillary and Obama must know way more. They have tons of experience in the medical field right?

Damn commies. Edited December 10, 2007 by smoker6146

[anathema]

Japan is doing well in technological advances because of WWII. Somewhere along the lines, Japan was not allowed to have a military but the US will have their backs. So that's one less expense to worry about so they focused on technology.

I've been to Australia and seen the health care system from different perspectives(people) and it's really confusing but it works pretty well I think; you get a free $100US pair of sunglasses every year. It's leaning towards socialist policies.

China is doing well now because they are actually unified and they already have the people, the stolen technology from the companies that outsource to China, the money from the foreign investors that outsource to China, and the land.

USA 2145