Trijicon Decided It'S Not Going To Be Politically Correct.

[TheScotsman]

Both of my ACOGs have it, but my reflex doesn't. Wonder if they will trade?

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/1999355,military-weapons-bible-verses-011910.article

I guess if they can shout religious phrases when they chop off heads with rusty butter knives, and murder unarmed innocents, it's somehow fitting to light their bean up in a sight quoting John 8:12.

How's that for political correctness? (theirs, not mine)

[thatonethere]

The link's broken. "Page not found"

[Stuie]

[quote name='thatonethere' date='20 January 2010 - 01:53 AM' timestamp='1263974038' post='446550']
The link's broken. "Page not found"
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Linking got broken

[url="http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/1999355,%20military-weapons-bible-verses-011910.article"]Clicky[/url]

[TheScotsman]

http://detnews.com/article/20100120/POLITICS03/1200356/Wixom-company-defends-Biblical-references-on-rifle-sights

Might be a better link.

[rahl071]

they've been using it for 30 years, and people are just now bitching? gimme a break people.

[Amn_sinclair]

hmmm ive never had an acog on my 4 we only use the m68 right now. dont see y its such a big deal though

[Sonthert]

Well I certainly agree its their right to make sights like that. Its also the governments responsibility to not buy them. its in that Amendment to the Constitution that gets overlooked all the time...the 1st Amendment. Separation of Church and State. If your "muslim" Obama decreed that only Islam was the religion of the United States, you would feel incensed. The United States is a diverse place. Many people of many religions. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. The only practical way we can protect the rights of a single person is to protect the rights of all people equally. That means there can be no preference or favoritism for any religion. Many of the founding fathers were religious. That didn't stop them from putting this provision in the Constitution...right in front of the right to bear arms.

You're really defending putting religious passages on rifle sights in a war because the backward ignorant religious extremists are quoting religious passages? So by that logic, if they raped women during war...it would be OK for our troops to rape women too? If you're going to stand up and defend something, try to do it with logic that makes sense when applied.

[rahl071]

honestly if it's the best product on the market, imho they could get away with writing much worse on their sights. I wouldn't care, as long as it does the best job keeping me alive.

[Punx Clever]

It's a sight that provides an advantage by providing light for the soldier... what better than a quote that is based on "providing light". If the company wants to put it in their serial numbers, who cares?

It's not the same as handing out pamphlets saying "Convert to teh Jesus or die!" as no one is stuffing it into anyones face saying "READ THIS AND BE FEARFUL!".

It's not referenced correctly (at least religiously) in the first place.

Wearing a cross tucked inside your uniform isn't out of regs either.

The equipment is not by any means "standard issue".

The list of reasons as to why this is a non-issue go on and on. The military only cares about what is the best product to carry out the mission (as it should), and i don't see a single problem with it.

[Charley]

There should be no rule against soldiers adding scripture to there equipment if it gives them comfort but it should not be added by the company making it.

I my self would not want bible quotes on something I am going to use to take a life (or in this case use to assist in the taking of a life)

every person in this world has the right to believe in any god or gods or lack of that they want regardless of what there government tells them.
but that dose not give them the right to force there religion on another (such as equipment with scripture on it when the individual using it dose not believe in it)

[Hippo_Master]

Wait, this has been the idea since the beginning...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html

[Sonthert]

And he did so well during his presidency, listening to god.

[johnp]

Personally this seems like simply one more example of how litigious our society has become. Apparently the bible verses were of some personal significance to the owner of the company that made the scopes. I also feel that if he wishes to continue putting them there, especially considering how vague the references are, I think he should be allowed to. After all, Chaplains hand out entire BIBLES (and for that matter, Korans, depending on the chaplain) in the middle of war zones. It is highly unlikely, in my opinion, that the person centered in one of the Trijicon scopes is very concerned as to whether there is a vague Biblical reference stamped somewhere near the serial number.
Simply ridiculous. People HERE who have NEVER been to war...imagine things like this up, in order to trump up lawyers' work.
This is just like when the formerly time-honored tradition of writing messages on bombs and ordnance by troops was banned. Because it's one thing to blow up an entire government building, killing every man, woman, dog, cat, rat, and cockroach inside....but Heaven forbid its targets find out it had a message written on it!

likewise, the scopes. A man invented these scopes, made a company, and due to their superior performance, the government decided to buy them from his company. The GOVERNMENT neither manufactures nor sells them. Therefore, I fail to see the issue.
No wonder wars are lasting so long. With people like we have running the place....how are we supposed to kill the enemy (in any war) at a rate he finds unacceptable enough that he lays down his arms and surrenders.....when we have to somehow manage to kill ONLY the enemy that we can prove is guilty (somehow) in a court of law, and do so without OFFENDING him, to boot?


This is insanity.

Even children know better than this. When there is a fight, fight and get it over with so peace can be made. It is silly to fight a little then pay lip service to the other guy...only to draw the fight out longer.

Point of note...there IS no Constitutional reference for any "separation of church and state" in the 1st Amendment as many believe (try and find it!) rather that is what some politically motivated entities want one to believe. Rather, the state is simply forbidden from [i]restricting[/i] the practice of any religion.....which is different. There may be DOD policy against the Biblical references, but nothing in the Constitution forbids them that I've seen.

FWIW most of the Trijicon sights I've seen were in the Marine Corps, not the Army; ACOGs are a bit pricey though even though they're nearly indestructible. My outfit, for instance, has EOTechs.


Sorry for the ramble folks, but I think we're getting ridiculous when this sort of thing makes news.

[Sonthert]

[quote name='The 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America'] Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.[/quote]

That is where the 1st Amendment says that there can be no national religion. The Supreme Court has pretty continuously upheld that it means the government can have no preference for one religion over another or religious vs. irreligious. This is commonly referred to as the separation of Church and State.

It is strictly prohibited for the government to purchase Bibles because of the 1st Amendment. Or anything with religious scripture on. Including Rifle sights. The bibles given to American servicemen are donated.

Nobody is saying we don't want the rifle sights. If the rifle sights were being made with quotations from the Koran, you guys would be bitching about that...that would be a big deal. Stop the hypocrisy already. Save the "This is a Christian Nation" swill too. The 1st Amendment says quite the opposite. There is no National Religion. The Supreme Court has upheld this repeatedly and even forced the States to abide by it, too...

[Hippo_Master]

[quote name='Sonthert' date='05 February 2010 - 07:01 AM' timestamp='1265374891' post='449874']
[quote name='The 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America'] Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.[/quote]

That is where the 1st Amendment says that there can be no national religion. The Supreme Court has pretty continuously upheld that it means the government can have no preference for one religion over another or religious vs. irreligious. This is commonly referred to as the separation of Church and State.

It is strictly prohibited for the government to purchase Bibles because of the 1st Amendment. Or anything with religious scripture on. Including Rifle sights. The bibles given to American servicemen are donated.

Nobody is saying we don't want the rifle sights. If the rifle sights were being made with quotations from the Koran, you guys would be bitching about that...that would be a big deal. Stop the hypocrisy already. Save the "This is a Christian Nation" swill too. The 1st Amendment says quite the opposite. There is no National Religion. The Supreme Court has upheld this repeatedly and even forced the States to abide by it, too...
[/quote]


Well put Eric, well put

If you don't like the bible on your gun sight don't buy the gun sight. From what I see, Republicans = Christians with Guns, so it makes perfects sense that these sights are available.

[johnp]

[quote name='Sonthert' date='05 February 2010 - 07:01 AM' timestamp='1265374891' post='449874']
[quote name='The 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America'] Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.[/quote]

That is where the 1st Amendment says that there can be no national religion. The Supreme Court has pretty continuously upheld that it means the government can have no preference for one religion over another or religious vs. irreligious. This is commonly referred to as the separation of Church and State.

It is strictly prohibited for the government to purchase Bibles because of the 1st Amendment. Or anything with religious scripture on. Including Rifle sights. The bibles given to American servicemen are donated.

Nobody is saying we don't want the rifle sights. If the rifle sights were being made with quotations from the Koran, you guys would be bitching about that...that would be a big deal. Stop the hypocrisy already. Save the "This is a Christian Nation" swill too. The 1st Amendment says quite the opposite. There is no National Religion. The Supreme Court has upheld this repeatedly and even forced the States to abide by it, too...
[/quote]
Can't resist being contrary here, but first, don't put words in my mouth-all the references to bitching about the Koran, or "Christian Nation" etc etc were not based on any statements I have made. If there is any hypocrisy...it hasn't come from my arguments.


Secondly, the entire 1st amendment reads a bit longer than one short sentence:
[font="Georgia,"][quote name='The 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America']Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[/quote][/font]
[font="Georgia,"] [/font]
[font="Georgia,"][size="3"][size="2"]So it remains that when one looks at the entire amendment, it still does not say anywhere that there is a separation, we have simply imagined it to be there out of our own tendencies to oversimplify things. Taken literally, as long as the government doesn't establish a religion nor impede the religions of the citizens, it is in the clear. A purchase order is not the same as enacting law establishing a state religion, and if anything, the first amendment is highly likely the reason the government wasn't able to simply order the inscriptions removed. Had there been the authority of law-it would have definitely done so. Rather, it simply asked, otherwise, the manufacturer's 1st amendment rights to freedom of speech as well as free exercise of his religion would have been in question. At best, the statements were simply not politically correct and invited lawsuits by those who deemed themselves offended. Had the government been manufacturing the sights perhaps things would have been different.[/size][/size][/font]

[font="Georgia,"][/font][font="Georgia,"][size="3"][size="2"]If the government can fund art exhibits where Christian icons are positioned in manners offensive (to Christians), or teach Atheist views wholesale at the exclusion of other religious views (yes, Atheism is a religion too) or perhaps those of other cultures... then the laws should be applied equally. The man makes a superior product, and inscribes for personal reasons a particular religious scripture...which is no different than any other expression of speech funded by taxpayers. I feel the same rules should apply. [/size][/size][/font]
[font="Georgia,"][size="3"][size="2"]The military buys a superior weapon sight because it is superior, not because of what may or may not have been stamped on it somewhere.[/size][/size][/font]
[font="Georgia,"] [/font] [font="Georgia,"][size="3"][size="2"]If the hot lead coming someone's way doesn't offend them enough, knowing something might be stamped in fine print on the weapon....surely isn't going to do worse.[/size][/size][/font]
[font="Georgia,"] [/font]
[font="Georgia,"][size="3"][size="2"]Of course, apparently some here believe "Republicans=Christians with guns" to which I would have to wonder, the alternative is....Pagans with slingshots? if you're a (free) citizen you can choose to own (or not to own) a gun if you so choose, but that's irrelevant to this topic.[/size][/size][/font]
[font="Georgia,"][size="3"][size="2"]I don't particularly feel more ill will to an enemy shooting at me simply because he is wearing something of Islamic origin, nor do I worry about what is stamped on his sights, near the serial number. Either he will die or I will but the serial number of his weapon sight or what religious affiliation he displays are sort of a moot point, except to people here.[/size][/size][/font]

[font="Georgia,"][/font][size="2"]Interesting question Eric, while I know there are Bibles and other books donated to the armed forces, how do you know the ones given out at the chaplains' offices are all donated? They all look pretty GI to me....we all got the same exact paperback version, of the entire Bible if we're lucky, and more usually, the New Testament (of the same). All have camouflaged covers, come by the crate load...and are the exact same on any US military base I've ever been to (which is a few). Pretty sure, since the armed forces are required to respect the troops' desire to practice their religions (see Amendment 1 above) that the government actually purchases these in bulk through the chaplain corps. However, they do not require anyone to attend, nor do they require anyone to take one with them...so I guess if the army required the soldier to attach the ACOG to his weapon, he could refuse to use it, and demand a substitute...I've seen one particular man in a unit I served in send the supply types all over creation because he wished not to wear leather boots....[/size]
[size=2]If the manufacturer removes the markings it will be more to avoid the protests of (most likely) non-servicemembers in a litigious society who claim they are offended. [/size]
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[size=2]It is just tiring that these days people have nothing better to do than find things to complain about which have absolutely nothing to do with them. Reminds me of the childhood story about too many cooks making the soup, one hates onions, the other hates potatoes, still another hates meat...until one is left with a bowl of water...[/size]
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[font="Georgia,"] [/font]
[font="Georgia,"][size="3"][size="2"]anyway happy smoking, gents.[/size][/size][/font]
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[alive]

I'm sure if you are issued a acog and dont want to use it on your rifle for 'religious reasons' another solider will take it off your hands. They make some of the best optics on the market, who cares what they write on it, if it can defend your life.

And organized religion scares the shit out of me.