Are We Really Free?

[Barnaby]

When we surrender our freedom for security, we lose both.. Not the exact quote, but its close enough to get the point across. The more we try and "protect" ourselves from a nameless threat like "terrorism" the closer and closer we become a police state. How far is too far? At what point do the masses say enough, and by then will it be too late?

[judgeposer]

No, we are not free. A prison is still a prison, no matter how nice it is. We are controlled, coerced, lied to, and stolen from everyday in this country by those in charge.

When we surrender our freedom for security, we lose both.. Not the exact quote, but its close enough to get the point across. The more we try and "protect" ourselves from a nameless threat like "terrorism" the closer and closer we become a police state. How far is too far? At what point do the masses say enough, and by then will it be too late?

It seems from your assertions that that it isn't that humans are not free, just that whoever occupies a non-elite status, perhaps like you and me, are not free, but not that humans are not necessarily not free creatures.

Also, such assertions, given their non-falsifiability, don't explain much, much less avail themselves to evaluation or refutation. Similar to Marx's "boot of capitalism," which he said was in our face, but we didn't realize it, might indeed explain the state of affairs, but it brings into question whether we can say such things with any certainty given the claim itself, which attempts to posit that the world isn't how we construe it. If that is the case, then how can we even make such a claim?

[Johnny_D]

I may have missed the point of this thread but I consider myself to be free.

The things that I might be free to choose may have an implication of punishment... anything from a minor infraction of a speed limit to murder. #
However I am free and I might get lucky to get away with it.

I see a lot of people getting upset about laws and the like, but as I get older I find myself struggling to understand why.

The way I see is that laws are enacted to deal with the changing world. For instance 10 years ago ID theft was (pritty much) never heard of.
As the world changes the laws need to change to help protect decent people.

So what's wrong with having laws?

JD

[Barnaby]

No, we are not free. A prison is still a prison, no matter how nice it is. We are controlled, coerced, lied to, and stolen from everyday in this country by those in charge.

When we surrender our freedom for security, we lose both.. Not the exact quote, but its close enough to get the point across. The more we try and "protect" ourselves from a nameless threat like "terrorism" the closer and closer we become a police state. How far is too far? At what point do the masses say enough, and by then will it be too late?

It seems from your assertions that that it isn't that humans are not free, just that whoever occupies a non-elite status, perhaps like you and me, are not free, but not that humans are not necessarily not free creatures.

Also, such assertions, given their non-falsifiability, don't explain much, much less avail themselves to evaluation or refutation. Similar to Marx's "boot of capitalism," which he said was in our face, but we didn't realize it, might indeed explain the state of affairs, but it brings into question whether we can say such things with any certainty given the claim itself, which attempts to posit that the world isn't how we construe it. If that is the case, then how can we even make such a claim?

By seeing through the construct. Our perception of reality is molded by the elite in charge, through their propaganda machines. Most by it hook, line, and sinker, but if you actually look at what's presented you can see the holes in it. For example, if you believe what the media tells us, your image of the world, would be a bleak, fearful one. We are shown the worst of everything, and its all blown out of proportion. You'd think you'll be murdered by going outside, or we're all going to die from the latest flu outbreak. But if you look at the facts, violent crime is at the lowest points its ever been, and the actual death rate from things like the swine flu, or SARS was around 3% or less.

I think the realm of humans themselves being free if a topic for another thread, as this thread was more on the lines of are we free in the American society.


Johnny D, I don't think there are problems with laws, but that all depends on if the laws are just or not. Unfortunately many laws are influenced by people with agendas, and with lots of money. Someone who is going to stand to lose alot of money, is surely going to back a law that would prevent that. Take into consideration the war on drugs, or more specifically the NHT plant. They would want you to believe that it's bad for you, is a gateway drug, etc, but they don't say how by legalizing it, how much money stands to be lost. Every government agency gets HUGE sums of money to support the war on drugs. There are more people in jail for NHT offenses, than any other crime combined. There is a reason that investing into privatized jails is the #1 thing to invest in. Not to mention the black market itself, who will influence lobbyists. How much do they stand to lose. At the end of the day, how can we determine if a law is truly unjust or not. Is it just that rapist can be on the streets faster, than someone who commited a non violent drug offense? And I'm not talking rackeetering or anything. Just a multiple possesion charge. How just is that? Edited May 26, 2009 by Barnaby

[Zyram]

wow. yes.

are you doing slave labor in a 3rd world country or getting blown up in israel? no.

you are sitting on your computer bitching about a government giving you a god damn "stimulus" check.

it's amazing that even when you are pretty well off the things we find to bitch about.

Ok first off calm down, its just a topic for discussion, I am was not bashing anyone.

As for your reply, actually I am getting blown up, about 6 months ago to be exact here in Iraq. Not a fun thing, but it has nothing to do with freedom. As far as the stimulus plan, I won't see a bit of it, and once again has nothing to do with freedom.

As for the topic at hand, laws passed to keep me from having a cig(I dont even smoke cigs) while I eat at a restaurant is ridiculous, where do we draw the line on what the government can and cannot restrict. Something as small as the smoking ban, can be directly related to say a extreme such as telling you where you can and cannot eat. In both circumstances, we are told what we can and cannot do where as before, we were functioning perfectly fine, as a free American in said area. By the government having the power to keep me from smoking in certain places, it also gives them the power to do something like telling me where to eat. I dont know, I guess I just feel like being in the Army, I am fighting for our right to be free, but then everyday a new bill, a new law is passed further restricting things in my life. Seems like we aren't getting anywhere. Anyways what are everyone elses opinions on government, specifically in the US? Its just a friendly discussion no need to get mad.

-Evo

Well, the smoking bans in restaurants/buildings technically don't infringe on YOUR freedoms, but those of the private business owners who own those places. From them is taken the right (all rights IMO are inherent, not granted by our oh-so-generous politicians) to run their business the way they choose, and to cater to the clientele they wish to cater to. So, indirectly it affects your freedom but you're still free. We're all free to do anything that we want to do, the government just has the monopoly on power and the usurped power to imprison us for some of those things we may want to do. No argument that there should be laws against murder, theft, etc, however those are all things that can be taken care of by simple natural law, no person should infringe on anothers rights. I think that's where this gray area comes in, because non-smokers say their rights are being infringed on by smokers. IMO, they have the right to go to a non-smoking bar/restaurant if they want, no one is stopping them. I think we're not very free, but that's just me. The smoking bans don't bother me as much as the taxes, since a third to a fourth of our YEAR is spent working for uncle sam, not ourselves. Indentured servitude? Serfdom? Slavery? I'd argue that no, it's not slavery because we still keep SOME of our earnings, but the indentured servitude is something to think about. At least we're not tied to the land and still have a good deal of freedom when it comes to moving around, so Serfdom is right out.

-Z

[soldier92]

The thing that frustrates me most when trying to talk to people about freedom is that some idiot always comes out and says "but hey, it could be worse"... FUCK YOU! This bullshit mentality is the main reason that we are so far from freedom. Yeah sure, it could always be worse, but that is beside the point, there is no reason to stop working to MAKE IT BETTER.

For example, I started smoking hookah some time ago and only had heard of Rosetta. After visiting this site I learned of the various other brands and found what I was missing out on. I did not look at reviews of Hookah Hookah, and say, "Oh, great, it could be worse, at least I'm not smoking that," and then return to my Rosetta. What I did was find better brands like Nakhla, Tangiers, etc. etc. and bought them instead.

The point is not to settle for what we have, society should be constantly evolving until it is perfected. This will never happen, society is an imperfect thing, therefore we must always strive to improve it, the moment we consider our society to be good enough, or free enough, or advanced enough to stop working on it is the moment we lose all our value as a species, it is our job to improve and evolve, not to give up and settle for what we have.

Barnaby - I think you were thinking of the Benjamin Franklin quote "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." One of my favorite quotes, good reference.

[Barnaby]

The thing that frustrates me most when trying to talk to people about freedom is that some idiot always comes out and says "but hey, it could be worse"... FUCK YOU! This bullshit mentality is the main reason that we are so far from freedom. Yeah sure, it could always be worse, but that is beside the point, there is no reason to stop working to MAKE IT BETTER.

For example, I started smoking hookah some time ago and only had heard of Rosetta. After visiting this site I learned of the various other brands and found what I was missing out on. I did not look at reviews of Hookah Hookah, and say, "Oh, great, it could be worse, at least I'm not smoking that," and then return to my Rosetta. What I did was find better brands like Nakhla, Tangiers, etc. etc. and bought them instead.

The point is not to settle for what we have, society should be constantly evolving until it is perfected. This will never happen, society is an imperfect thing, therefore we must always strive to improve it, the moment we consider our society to be good enough, or free enough, or advanced enough to stop working on it is the moment we lose all our value as a species, it is our job to improve and evolve, not to give up and settle for what we have.

Barnaby - I think you were thinking of the Benjamin Franklin quote "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." One of my favorite quotes, good reference.

I agree with you completely sir. That's the whole point of the way our society is set up. We are kept stupid, fat, obsessed with unimportant things, diseased, so we can be content with the "freedom" we do have. We are born into being a debt slave, and work our entire lives away so the ruling elite can do whatever they please.

[MN_Clouds]

Completely free? Of course not. according to the social contract, people give up certain rights and freedom to preserve some semblance of social order

[soldier92]

I would like to encourage everyone in this thread who hasn't already to watch Zeitgeist. You can get it from www.thezeitgeistmovement.com. Both The Movie and Addendum are worth seeing. It is an excellent movie criticizing our society and pointing out the many faults within it. It is really well thought out and not your average conspiracy movie.

[Barnaby]

I would like to encourage everyone in this thread who hasn't already to watch Zeitgeist. You can get it from www.thezeitgeistmovement.com. Both The Movie and Addendum are worth seeing. It is an excellent movie criticizing our society and pointing out the many faults within it. It is really well thought out and not your average conspiracy movie.

Damn skippy. Most people don't realize the coup that took over this country thanks to Woodrow.. Least he later came out and said he regretted what he did.

[Johnny Unseen]

why do little college kid always have to picket over everything in the world?. go to another country where you cant walk down the street without being shot at for wearing your normal everyday clothes that you wear back in the states. america is the most free nation youll ever see. we can pretty much do whatever we want whenever we want. sure there are little minor annoyances here and there but get over it and stop crying. I really think most people will never know the true meaning of freedom. I dont think anyone will really understand unless they have lived through the opposite. being told when to eat, when to sleep, when to walk, when to talk, and when to be a certain place or you will get beaten or killed. Stuff like this really upsets me. people dont know what they have and will probably remain ignorant until they die. is it really so hard to walk an extra 30 feet to get something you want? seriously is it? and when you get there you get it right? so why complain? the answer is because you can. its your right as an american to speak freely about whatever you want. appreciate what you have and thank god you dont live in other places in the world.

[RingsMaster]

we are free, compared to other people and nations, i think americans should be happy with what we have. even though there are laws i disagree with most are put in effect to help the majority of people in the nation. i do believe that we should be able to smoke where we want and just have a smoking section, to take others into consideration. things have to go both ways, do what you want but be considerate of other people.

as for freedom we can never be completly free because that wouldnt work, our country would fall apart.
i do not like where we are going as a country either, communist and socialist but things will change with time. be happy with the country you live in and wait out the bad i guess