Pres Debate

[TheScotsman]

That wasn't a debate. I expected better from Big O, that wasn't a loss so much as an utter defeat - the political equivalent of Dunkerque minus the boat rescue, Better go back to the teleprompter, and fire the prep team. All I heard was the same old talking points, and lame stories about imaginary people, the same old crap I heard 4 years ago got a cheap retread job ans shoved back out the door at us.

There was a definite lack of actual coherent responses to gov mittens.

The pres' closing was just a "vote for me because he sux" that had no real reason to vote for him.

R-1
O-0

[Tyler]

Romney will win. If Obama wins I will be staying in Korea for 3 more years than expected.

[Chreees]

I haven't watched the debate yet; it's recorded on the DVR at home and I will watch it in the morning while smoking and post my thoughts. Regardless, I feel it's probably safe to say that Obama is getting a second term. Romney just isn't a strong enough candidate to beat an incumbent. We shall see.

[Tyler]

Obama got schooled tonight Chris.

[Chreees]

Who? By Mitt Romney? Doubt it... But I will see for myself in the morning.

[Hassouni]

Romney looked nervooouuuuuusss

[Rani]

A online poll asked all day if the debate tonight would change anyone's mind.......

17% said maybe, there's still more to learn, but
83% said no their mind is already made up.

So I didn't even bother to watch. I think unless something really dramatic happens it's already over.

'Rani

[Chreees]

Okay, Obama definitely didn't bring his A game, but I still wouldn't say Romney "won." It all comes down to which person appealed more to you personally. Romney seemed more likeable now because he talked about the middle class more. It was almost as if he was throwing Obama's talking points back at him at times. Weird. Either way, I like what Obama had to say better, because I know what Romney was spewing was BS, just wanting to gain popularity among the middle class voters (the "47%" lol) after his last few fumbles. I'll start believing Romney when he gives specifics as to what loopholes he'll close and exactly what he'll do to bring the deficit down. My firm belief is the rich in this country should be paying more taxes than the middle class, not less. Obama also believes that, but Romney does not. I could go on with other issues, such as what Romney wants to cut funding for (PBS), etc. Facts are we know where Obama stands because we've seen four years of his efforts, but there is so much unknown with Romney, and we can only go off of what he says he's going to do, which, let's admit, hasn't been too friendly to the middle class, but has been to the rich, again, like Bush's actions were in his 8 years. Do you want something more in line with Clinton's years, or do you want something more in line with Bush's years? That's the decision you have to make when you go to vote.

I think these debates would be much more interesting if they had the green or libertarian parties in there, too.

[Stuie]

Not watching Presidential Debates ever again until other parties are allowed to join

Libertarian
Independent
Green
Justice
Constitution

I would even love a Solocist party canidate to be up there. Might open a lot of people's eyes to see how much the 2 parties sound just like them!

[Chreees]

[quote name='Stuie' timestamp='1349362109' post='557809']
Not watching Presidential Debates ever again until other parties are allowed to join

Libertarian
Independent
Green
Justice
Constitution

I would even love a Solocist party canidate to be up there. Might open a lot of people's eyes to see how much the 2 parties sound just like them!
[/quote]

Totally agree! I'm honestly considering not watching the rest of the debates. Almost doesn't seem worth the time. +1 rep, Stu.

[r1v3th3ad]

[quote name='Chreees' timestamp='1349362632' post='557813']
[quote name='Stuie' timestamp='1349362109' post='557809']
Not watching Presidential Debates ever again until other parties are allowed to join

Libertarian
Independent
Green
Justice
Constitution

I would even love a Solocist party canidate to be up there. Might open a lot of people's eyes to see how much the 2 parties sound just like them!
[/quote]
Totally agree! I'm honestly considering not watching the rest of the debates. Almost doesn't seem worth the time. +1 rep, Stu.
[/quote]I agree and +1

[Rani]

I never thought they were worth the time. They are orchestrated. Essentially reality TV on political issues. Why would I base an important decision on what somebody is doing in front of a camera? Romney had a good night from all I've heard, but nobody ever accused him of being a terrible speaker. I want to know the substance I'm voting for, and that I find in the work they've produced in the past. Not an orchestrated reality television show.

'Rani

[gramps]

Oh, my! The denial is flowing fast and furious ( to borrow a phrase ) around here.

[Chreees]

[quote name='gramps' timestamp='1349389472' post='557829']
Oh, my! The denial is flowing fast and furious ( to borrow a phrase ) around here.
[/quote]

Orrr, perhaps it is the other way around?

[Rani]

I'm going to say something and I'm going to get oh so many "race card" shouts, but screw it..........

No one would be talking about a sitting president the way they do if he weren't black. Deny it all you like, the that is the reality of being black in America - still the second most racist nation in the world. (Japan still leads.)

The experts claimed at the beginning of the recession it would take a decade to get back to some semblance of normal. You're all yelling because he couldn't do it in 3-1/2.

Fast and Furious was nothing more than an extension of Wide Receiver, but nobody vilifies Bush, only Obama. The information coming out now is not and has never been classified information about Wide Receiver. Only Fast and Furious. Wonder why that is, hmmm?

Obama put forward 136 jobs bills that would give major tax breaks to businesses that hire. Congress filibustered those bills 415 times. But it's his fault?

Most of those who hate Obama wouldn't hate him if he were less educated, less accomplished, less outside the Southern middle-aged white contingent. But the dumbest thing is why on earth would you vote for somebody who has openly said he wants to fuck you over? Romney has said that. He's not going to impact business or the wealthy, he's going to take more and more from YOU! Why would anyone vote against their own self interests?

To quote John Steinbeck:

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."

That's where the real problem is..... Never mind the socialism reference. Most of the working poor in this country think they're temporarily embarrassed millionaires. But WE ARE NOT!

When Romney say's he's going to give Social Security over to Wall Street, that's YOUR check they're going to gamble with. Madoff hasn't paid back the money he blew on Wall Street, so what makes you think if they lose YOUR Social Security it's still going to be there waiting for you?

When Romney promises support to Israel no matter what, that's YOUR sons and daughters dying in a foreign war without a single shred of proof that Iran will ever have nuclear weapons capability.

When Romney says he's going to close down Medicare and give vouchers to the states instead, that's YOUR health care you won't be able to get unless you spend YOUR money to buy a voucher.

When Romney says as he did in Ohio that he's going to cut taxes to business, but not to you, that's money out of YOUR pocket.

When Romney says he wants to reverse Roe vs. Wade and made ALL abortion illegal, that's YOUR daughter that would have to bear the child of rape or incest.

I could go on, but really, many of you need to begin to realize you are NOT temporarily embarrassed millionaires. YOU ARE THE WORKING POOR!

And you want to vote for the guy who got caught on camera saying clearly in his own voice he doesn't care about you?

How stupid can the voting public possibly be??????

I stand by my statement, because if Obama were white, you wouldn't be rushing to vote for somebody you have been clearly shown is going to fuck you. No dinner, no cocktail, not even a fucking box of candy.

'Rani

[Tyler]

No one gives a shit that Obama is black. No one that I know at least, and I know a lot of people. It seems that the only people who DO care that he is black are the ones so quick to call on others for being racist. Say all you want about Romney and Obama but the fact of the matter is Obama couldn't get anything done that mattered to ME. I don't care about you, or my neighbor, I care about me when it comes to who I vote for. Obama has fucked up in so many ways that it is really hard to make one coherent thread about it. The first two years of his presidency did nothing but ruin foreign relations and let him push his retarded ass Obama care, which by the way, caused MANY businesses to close down. Other than reading all this liberal biased bullshit I saw it first hand from my uncle who owned a business and who mentioned many, many, many local people who also lost their businesses due to Obamacare. People who supported and invested into his business. Way to create those jobs Obama! Oh, and let us not forget about the atrociously pugent pile of shit known as the bailouts and stimulus packages. How about the deficit? See the previous two points for the REAL reasons those numbers are so bad. Anyone remember the Gulf oil issue? Yeah, you can thank Obama for getting in the state of Louisiana's way on that one. Wouldn't have been nearly as bad if he just stayed the fuck away. Obama completely fucked up the budget, time table, and effectiveness of the Afghanistan war by taking MONTHS to respond for the plea for more troops and when he finally sent them he started talking about a withdrawl time table? I'm not going to even get started on the shit storm Obama created in Egypt. And how long did it take Obama to go with France and the Arab nation to the UN about Libya? And why so secrative about it? Oh, and what about these student loan debts. Oh, and the killing of humanities and arts in schools from the elementary level all the way to the university level.

Yeah fuck you if you vote for Obama. He fucked up more shit in 3 1/2 years than Bush did in 8 years but people are still backing him? You are whats wrong with America. Get over it.

[Rani]

Me.thinks you're going to be telling a whole lot of people fuck you Tyler. But hey think what you want. Romney is going to fuck you so much worse than Obama ever had if he wins. Hear me now, believe me later.

'Rani

[Tyler]

Funny thats the same thing people said about Obama and he has been way worse than Bush ever was..and I mean WAY worse. I haven't met any Obama voters in real life who really know anything about the stance of either of the canidtates they are just anti Romney because thats all they see/read on the internet and media. Funny thing is one of my friends who was a huge Obama voter, sat her down and wrote down some of the platforms for both, and she said column A was much better than column B, A was Bush. Then I did the same thing for Obama and Romney and she picked A again, who Romney. The majority of Obama voters are ignorant and support Obama because it's the cool thing to do, they don't really know shit about politics. And you keep saying Romney is going to fuck us? How? What is he going to do?

[Chreees]

Well this is turning into a clusterfuck.

Rani, well put. I agree with you on all points.

Tyler, please don't say "fuck you" to people who will be voting for Obama. I'm most likely going to be voting for the guy, so... You wanna say "fuck you" to me?? There's ways to discuss things and then there are ways not to. You are not going about it the right way. You won't win people over by saying "fuck you" to them. I expected more from you, honestly. We can discuss things civilly as friends and not offend one another. Either way, knock it off. First and final warning.

Thread will be closed if this escalates further because people don't know how to convey their thoughts in a civil manner.


Tapatalk'd via iPhone

[Tyler]

Typical. Someone doesn't agree with Chris and they get a warning. Well I'll make it easy for you, I'll leave the forum. The politics of this forum make about as much sense as the politics of Obama. Peace out

[Rani]

I suppose I could gloat that the extremity of the response proves my point, but instead I'm feeling sad that someone would just bail out of a forum they are a valued member of because of divergent political views. I want to clarify something..........When I talk about America being racist, I'm not pointing a finger saying Tyler or Scotsman or anyone else is racist in the way we have come to think of "a racist" - that of a card carrying white hood wearing redneck burning crosses on the lawn in Mississippi. What I'm saying is that racism has permeated our collective unconscious. We are ALL racist to some degree, whether you're a women clutching your purse just a little tighter in a black neighborhood than a white one, a teacher who expect a little more of your Asian students, or a minority ever alert for the imagined slight you're certain is coming. We've been bombarded with it for generations, from the "savages" that had to be "civilized" in order to grow a country, to a system of slavery that went on decades after every other civilized nation rejected it, to our daily dose of "immigration reform" where we all know we're not talking Danes sneaking into the country illegally. When that has become part of our unconscious, logic goes right out the window and we start working on emotion.

Take Tylers supposition that Obamacare has caused the close of businesses. (And that's the ONLY point I'm going to address to put the issue I raised somewhat to rest.) First, Romney invented "Obamacare", but he doesn't get any of the credit or blame. The Affordable Health Care Act was almost entirely based on the plan Romney created in Massachusetts.Secondly, we had to put something place. For more than twenty years the cost of health care has risen at more than three times the rate of inflation. It simply could not remain unchecked. I also approve of the tax or fine or whatever you call it for those not buying insurance because every single time someone uninsured goes to the hospital for emergency care, the rest of us pay for it, so yes, I believe those people should be penalized to at least partially pay for the cost of their uninsured care. So kudos to both Romney and Obama for actually tackling the issue. Thirdly, those people who claim Obamacare has impacted their business quite simply, not telling the truth. It can't have, [i][u]because it doesn't even take effect for another 15 months![/u][/i] Look, I'm in the middle of a small business start up, plus I'm still working full time at a small business. Obamacare has not impacted the costs of health care by a single dime, not a single cent. And according to our CPA, it isn't likely to affect us financially as a business 15 months from now. So blaming Obamacare for a business to fail to thrive? It defies all logic entirely.

I get it though. Those people who struggled to keep their business afloat through the worst recession in our lifetimes, finally lost the fight. And they need something or someone to blame. What's the single biggest change? A black president bringing us "socialized" medical care. It may not be logical, but it's instinctual, and it's emotional, and it's based on a polarized society steeped in unconscious racism. And those things are going to continue to govern us for a very long time. In retrospect, maybe we shouldn't have elected someone who triggers such an emotional response when we desperately need cooperation in Washington D.C. Maybe we weren't ready for it. But that's what we've got. And the only challenger is somebody who has plainly said he's is NOT on our side. I'm not defending Obama. I'm not saying Obama is perfect by any means. I agree with some of his actions, disagree with others, and am neutral on still more because I'm not going to second guess any president when I don't have the same information he has. We always hit up presidents after the fact that the didn't keep their campaign promises, but how can they? Until they're actually sitting in the Oval Office, they don't have all the information. The Security Advisors aren't briefing the candidates, only the sitting president. The same is true of the Pentagon, the Federal Reserve, the Speaker, foreign heads of state, and so on and so on. Until they have all the facts, they make a whole lot of promises they're not aware they're not likely to be able to keep no matter how much they want to. But don't think I'm supporting Obama unconditionally because I'm not. I'm simply saying Romney is very, VERY much worse.

Tyler, I hope you don't actually leave the forum. Chris was fair in his warning because the envelope was pushed. However, we've all done it, and we're all likely to do it at times in the future. Mush says sometimes he feels like taking care of us is like herding cats. But I believe in discussion, and I believe in logic, and I even believe in you and I (and everyone else) being able to have an intelligent discussion on political and any other topic. If we don't rise above, we're kinda doomed to sink below. Rising above is definitely preferable, don't you think?

'Rani

[Chreees]

[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1349421307' post='557863']Typical. Someone doesn't agree with Chris and they get a warning. Well I'll make it easy for you, I'll leave the forum. The politics of this forum make about as much sense as the politics of Obama. Peace out[/quote]

Did I ever say you had to agree with me? No. Scotsman and Gramps disagree with me all the time. Do they get warnings? No. Because they follow the rule we have on here about respecting your fellow members. They know how to discuss their points without offending others. You apparently can not, because you have to say fuck you to a portion of the members on here while getting your point across. Get it now?

Tapatalk'd via iPhone

[Skoozle]

[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1349406881' post='557851']
No one gives a shit that Obama is black. No one that I know at least, and I know a lot of people. It seems that the only people who DO care that he is black are the ones so quick to call on others for being racist. Say all you want about Romney and Obama but the fact of the matter is Obama couldn't get anything done that mattered to ME. I don't care about you, or my neighbor, I care about me when it comes to who I vote for. Obama has fucked up in so many ways that it is really hard to make one coherent thread about it. The first two years of his presidency did nothing but ruin foreign relations and let him push his retarded ass Obama care, which by the way, caused MANY businesses to close down. Other than reading all this liberal biased bullshit I saw it first hand from my uncle who owned a business and who mentioned many, many, many local people who also lost their businesses due to Obamacare. People who supported and invested into his business. Way to create those jobs Obama! Oh, and let us not forget about the atrociously pugent pile of shit known as the bailouts and stimulus packages. How about the deficit? See the previous two points for the REAL reasons those numbers are so bad. Anyone remember the Gulf oil issue? Yeah, you can thank Obama for getting in the state of Louisiana's way on that one. Wouldn't have been nearly as bad if he just stayed the fuck away. Obama completely fucked up the budget, time table, and effectiveness of the Afghanistan war by taking MONTHS to respond for the plea for more troops and when he finally sent them he started talking about a withdrawl time table? I'm not going to even get started on the shit storm Obama created in Egypt. And how long did it take Obama to go with France and the Arab nation to the UN about Libya? And why so secrative about it? Oh, and what about these student loan debts. Oh, and the killing of humanities and arts in schools from the elementary level all the way to the university level.

Yeah fuck you if you vote for Obama. He fucked up more shit in 3 1/2 years than Bush did in 8 years but people are still backing him? You are whats wrong with America. Get over it.
[/quote]


I know a lot of people who care that Obama is black. I know a lot of people who were afraid of having a black president and who had a literal "OH SHIT" moment when the votes were finally counted up. Of course none of the stuff they were afraid of materialized and they actually are clueless about politics but that's beside the point.

The main point I wanted to make is that just like you don't care about anyone else when it comes to your vote, no one cares about you or your uncle when it comes to their vote. You have your one vote just like all the other adult citizen non-felons in America. Cast your vote for who you believe is the best person to lead our country for the next 4 years.

Shouting isn't going to change anyone's mind. Education about the candidates is one of the few things that might change the minds of a very small fraction of the undecided voters.

Do you think you are going to get Rani or Chris to vote for Romney? Do you think Rani or Chris are going to get TheScotsman or Gramps to vote for Obama?

The discussions aren't going to change anyone's mind except for maybe one or two young undecided voters who might come in here and read this discussion. If this discussion does change anyone's mind it will probably be to just not vote because what's the point.

The fact of the matter is that most of the mud flinging in this thread is true; in both the cases of Obama and Romney. It is my opinion that neither one will provide effective leadership for our country. They really are two different horses pulling the carriage in basically the same direction.

As long as the vast majority of the country continues to argue on whether we should go SSE or SSW, we will continue to head basically south. And for the most part, everything will be ok; never great, but never devastating.

In my short history of presidential elections, I have seen very little change from one president to the next. Maybe I'm still too young for it to matter to me, but I haven't really seen any difference in the lives of the older people I know either.

Getting hostile and pointing out things that that are wrong about the "other guy" isn't going to change anyone's vote, if anything, it's going to save them a couple of hours of standing in line on Nov. 6.

Calmly point out where the other guy is likely to lead the country astray and point out how your guy is going to improve the state of this country.

If you're undecided, do your own research. And reading these types of discussions on a hookah forum don't count as research. Look at who you would vote for right now if you suddenly appeared in a voting booth then try to find reasons to not vote for him and try to find reasons to vote for the other candidates. Sometime over the course of the next month, you will find who you truly believe in.

Then, most importantly, cast your vote for who you believe in. If you like someone from one of the third parties, vote for them. Yeah, they are not going to win, unless Obama and Romney get caught smoking crack together in a child labor sweat shop that they own together. But if a third party gets 20% this year then more people will see them as a viable option in 2016 then maybe they will get 25%. Then in 2020, we may actually be out of the two-party trap that we have been stuck in since the '60s.

If you are looking at any one of the candidates and you think they can do no wrong, you have clearly not educated yourself enough about this year's election. Look at all of them and pick the best one. Don't waste your time looking for a perfect candidate.

EDIT: I realize that I am responding to a vacated member, but this is my reaction to his post and the general nature of this thread and countless other "discussions" I have seen. Go to the voting booth and cast your vote, but please take the blindfold off first.

[Chreees]

Well said, Ashley. You are absolutely right. And it's what I've been saying all along... No president is perfect, and you just have to look at which one will have your best interests in mind the most. That's why I'm torn between Obama and Johnson. Obama I have liked in the way of allowing me to stay on my dad's insurance until I'm 26, which has been a great help to me, and will allow my wife and I to find decent insurance despite her pre-existing conditions, I like how he officially ended Iraq (even though we'll always have troops over there from now on) and has a timetable for Afghanistan, but I also strongly disagree with him on things such as the NDAA and the drone strikes, etc. He is not in any way a perfect president. But I believe he will continue to help me and my family more than Romney will. Johnson on the other hand just makes too much damn sense. Since I know here in TN my vote won't count towards Obama, I might as well vote for who would really change things up in Washington, right? That's why I'm leaning towards Johnson this November.

As for for the race thing, a lot of people have problems with Obama being black. My grandparents are a personal example. They don't like Obama "because he's black," and "because he's a Muslim." They watch Fox News and believe all the obvious and implied shit they spew, obviously. I however have no problems with Obama being half-black. Hell, my dad just told me he's been dating a black woman past couple months and I'm totally fine with it. My grandmother is going to freak when she finds out, though. Either way, yes, people in America DO care that Obama is black... half-black... lol. Who the hell cares. We'll all be a brown color someday once we've all fucked one another.

[Skoozle]

Yeah, I just hope people don't get caught up in defensive voting and picking the lesser of two evils.

I see so many arguments about how the current president is fixing problems from XX years ago but then turn around and argue about who should be president for the next 4 years never considering what will happen in the elections to follow.

Anyway, vote for who you like, if the majority of America agrees with you, you get what you asked for. If you vote for the lesser of two evils, and the majority of America agrees, you get what you asked for.