Religion

[Scrappydoo]

[font="Verdana"][size="3"][color="#000080"][color="#000000"][font="Arial Black"][b]Scrappydoo has asked for this thread to be removed, but since many members have put a lot of time into their posts on this thread, it would be unfair to keep it removed for good. So I am reinstating it but with all of Scrappy's posts removed. Please continue the healthy debate. Remember the first rule of HF... Respect!

Thanks,
Chris
INCUBUSRATM
[/b][/font][/color][/color][/size][/font] Edited August 13, 2011 by INCUBUSRATM
Making everyone happy.

[jorlyfish]

My parents and I never really discussed religion. I was raised very vaguely (Protestant) Christian, and attended church more or less weekly with my mom (dad stayed at home) until I was about 7 years old. I don't know why we stopped going, and frankly, didn't really care at the time. I didn't like going. Her side of the family is of varying intensities of Christianity and conservative-ness, and my mom seems to be the most loosely religious of her immediate family. My dad's side of the family shows no sign of religion that I'm aware of - no churchgoers, no praying at meals, etc. They celebrate Christmas, not that particularly means anything.
My mom was a little upset when she discovered that I'm an agnostic atheist ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism"]no, that's not redundant or contradictory)[/url] and asked me to remove it from my facebook profile, even though I feel [url="http://outcampaign.org/"]visibility for atheists is really important[/url] - that we're not a small group, we're not evil, untrustworthy, or crazy, we have morals and lead totally normal lives, and that it's an okay thing to be able to say... sort of a similar fight that the LGBTQQ community had (and has) ever so recently for being considered a normal part of society and we are not to be [url="http://atheism.about.com/od/attacksonatheism/p/AtheistBigotry.htm"]discriminated against[/url]. I don't "preach" atheism or agnosticism, because I don't appreciate it when people try and "convert" me. I like that saying about religion being like a penis: Its fine to have one, its fine to be proud of it, but please don't wave it around or shove it down my (or a child's) throat.

I don't really talk about my lack of faith with my family. It doesn't come up and I feel the discussion would probably go nowhere if it did. I play along with the prayers and such at mealtimes with my mom's family, just bow my head and close my eyes. It's not bothersome to me - I just sort of have a quiet moment which I like - and I feel it is more of a sign of respect for my grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc.

[Scrappydoo]

My mom was a little upset when she discovered that I'm an agnostic atheist ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism"]no, that's not redundant or contradictory)[/url] and asked me to remove it from my facebook profile, even though I feel [url="http://outcampaign.org/"]visibility for atheists is really important[/url] - that we're not a small group, we're not evil, untrustworthy, or crazy, we have morals and lead totally normal lives, and that it's an okay thing to be able to say...


[font="Georgia"][color="#000080"]One of my best friends and favorite people in the world is Atheist and she is the most kind-hearted, moral people I know. I hate when people equate religion with morals and kindness. Did you find the concept church hard to believe or scary? I was scared to death when I was young of this big dead body hanging on the wall of the church and people talking about holy ghosts! Ha! I guess my parents didn't explain it well for a child.

Thanks for your input, I hope your parents come to the realization as an adult you have the right to believe as you do.[/color][/font]

[Tyler]

I was born Southern Baptist and was raised in a mix setting of Baptist, Methodist, and Lutherin. In high school I always felt something was missing and was exposed to various religions around the world and began exploring. Right now I identify as a Muslim but that is what I tell people who really don't have a grasp on the concept of religions. Personally I could be called a Muslim or a Christian and be okay with it. I personally use both the Bible and the Qur'an as my Holy Books and I have no problems with it. I know a lot of Muslims and a lot of Christians who would/do but that's not my issue to work out. I am an Islamic apologetic though, as I always argue on favor of the Muslim side of things but I can just as easily argue the Christian side. I don't care what religion someone is or isn't nor do I care if they are atheists or agnostics or Buddhists (which isn't a religion). As long as they are ethically good people by the modern populat understanding of things I believe that God can be reached by many paths, even if you don't refer to the Lord as God.

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1311330735' post='516876']
I was born Southern Baptist and was raised in a mix setting of Baptist, Methodist, and Lutherin. In high school I always felt something was missing and was exposed to various religions around the world and began exploring. Right now I identify as a Muslim but that is what I tell people who really don't have a grasp on the concept of religions. Personally I could be called a Muslim or a Christian and be okay with it. I personally use both the Bible and the Qur'an as my Holy Books and I have no problems with it. I know a lot of Muslims and a lot of Christians who would/do but that's not my issue to work out. I am an Islamic apologetic though, as I always argue on favor of the Muslim side of things but I can just as easily argue the Christian side. I don't care what religion someone is or isn't nor do I care if they are atheists or agnostics or Buddhists (which isn't a religion). As long as they are ethically good people by the modern populat understanding of things I believe that God can be reached by many paths, even if you don't refer to the Lord as God.
[/quote]


As you know, Muslims accept the Bible. The People who have problems seem to be uneducated and just follow what their parents tell them. This is what drew me to this post, I respect people who question and do their own research and find their own path.

[jorlyfish]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1311329905' post='516873']
My mom was a little upset when she discovered that I'm an agnostic atheist ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism"]no, that's not redundant or contradictory)[/url] and asked me to remove it from my facebook profile, even though I feel [url="http://outcampaign.org/"]visibility for atheists is really important[/url] - that we're not a small group, we're not evil, untrustworthy, or crazy, we have morals and lead totally normal lives, and that it's an okay thing to be able to say...


[font="Georgia"][color="#000080"]One of my best friends and favorite people in the world is Atheist and she is the most kind-hearted, moral people I know. I hate when people equate religion with morals and kindness. Did you find the concept church hard to believe or scary? I was scared to death when I was young of this big dead body hanging on the wall of the church and people talking about holy ghosts! Ha! I guess my parents didn't explain it well for a child.

Thanks for your input, I hope your parents come to the realization as an adult you have the right to believe as you do.[/color][/font]
[/quote]
Yes, it's pretty ridiculous for people to equate religion with morals... yet people have asked me on many occasions where I get my moral compass or how I know right from wrong. Well... my upbringing? Having human emotions? Not being a sociopath? I don't need someone else to tell me it's not good to hurt other people or take their things and so forth.

People are also often surprised to hear that I believe Jesus was a real person. I think he was a peaceful guy with a lot of great advice on living and how to treat other people. I just think it stops there.

Haha, I'm under the impression that scary church is more of a Catholic thing. Even Catholics themselves joke about it... I don't think we had a crucified Jesus hanging around our little Presbyterian church.
I mostly just felt church was boring. I'm not sure if I felt it wasn't true/found it hard to believe at the time -- Like I said, I went at a very young age. I've always been a skeptic though - I asked my parents some questions concerning the logic of Santa at a very young age, and when they finally told me he wasn't real I just replied "I know." Not trying to equate any gods/higher beings with the concept of Santa, mind you, but it's been a long-standing trait for me to question things.

[Chreees]

I voted the last one because my parents didn't really go to church or anything past the age of 6 or 8. So we pretty much stopped going after that. But we went to a Methodist church. My grandparents would take me to their Baptist church whenever they possibly could. Ya know, one of those Southern Baptist you're-gonna-go-to-hell-if-you-don't-go-to-church kind of places. Needless to say, I never enjoyed going. They still try to get me to go sometimes, but I always go up there on Sunday mornings right after I get off work at 7AM from working my third shift, so I just use the reason that I'm too tired to go when I get there and need sleep. Which is actually a valid reason.

Okay, so reason why I said my beliefs are SIMILAR to my parents- Talking to my dad and mom growing up, they always told me it never matters what you believe in, but so long as you have faith in something. My dad doesn't really claim any certain denomination, but calls himself a Christian. My mom was going to a psycho church where they actually cursed and everything, can't remember which denomination it was (EDIT: I thought of it- Episcopal). She described it as "loosely Catholic," I believe. Anyway, she often told me that it doesn't matter what you believe in, as long as it's something. But this never really hit home with me and I never really knew "what I was" religion-wise until I met my Hindu manager who said the very same thing- "Chris, it does not matter what you believe in, as long as you believe in something. It may seem like I worship a different god than you, but really we all worship the same god, just different versions." To me, that seemed like a pretty good way to put it. Over the past few years, I have developed into feeling like no religion can be right over another. It's all man-made belief. There is no proof of any one religion's legitimacy over another. So I have formally claimed to be agnostic. Actually just changed my Facebook to it a couple weeks ago, haha. When I tell people this, which I have twice in the past couple weeks at work when religion was brought up, the first thing out of their mouth is "Isn't that atheist?" No. It just means you feel that nothing can be proved. And there's many variations of it. For example, you can believe in God yet still be agnostic. That's kinda how I am- I believe there is a higher power, but we as man cannot even fathom or understand him. Hence why we ended up with so many variations of what to believe and whatnot. It's all just made up by man because we simply [i]cannot[/i] understand. So I kneel to this higher power and I even pray sometimes, but in the end I feel like we as humans can never truly know. And that's okay, because we don't have to know. We just have to have faith, no matter what that faith is.

[angekfire]

I was born and raised Catholic, though my view has slowly and progessively shifted to athiest. My father was catholic (though pretty much non-practicing), and my mother was Non-denominational Christian, though the rest of her family was Catholic. She was born after her mother and father had become divorced so the priest refused to baptise her as a child because she was born out of wedlock. I prayed every single day without exception.

My faith in Catholicism was shaken fairly early but I still believed on faith alone. When I was fairly young, we went to a cathedral, which had a gift shop. They were selling all kinds of souvenirs, but one in particular sort of struck me as a mockery & blasphemous. A glow in the dark crucifix. To me, that showed me that the Catholic church was nothing but a business, and I no longer supported it, though I still believed in the bible, etc, and started identifying as non-denominational Christian.

I went to Catholic school early on, then I went to a public high school. Public school ended up being a lot better for me than Catholic school ever was. I still identified as Christian though at this point, though I somewhat doubted Christianity, but continued on faith. In college I had a dream about Satanism, which I interpreted to mean "Seek the knowledge, but be careful in doing so". So I did research into Satanism, and it really, isn't what I expected. No sacrifices, no actual worship of Satan, it was really not at all what I was expecting. I was actually surprised. It certainly wasn't for me, but I found it interesting. That sort of was a starting point for becoming interested in religion, theology, and philosophy. I began researching many different religions, freemasonry & witchcraft, some very obscure, some more mainstream.

I found myself questioning more and more, about if there are so many varied religions, who can know which one is right? I found so many contradictions in the bible, and thought "If God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, as Christianity leads me to believe, then why is there evil in the world? The God of the old testament also isn't what I would call 'good' either." This lead me to switch my religious view to dysthiest, the belief that there is a God, but it is not all good, and is a balance of good and evil. It was either that, or belief in multiple Gods, some good, and some evil. It was around this time I finally stopped praying. I had always irrationally feared that if I stopped praying, bad things would happen. But surprise, nothing bad happened. Hell, I found life got better for me.

From there, I found more and more evidence of contradiction in the concept of God as a whole. I began to doubt that there was a God at all, though I maintained the belief that "Hey, maybe. Who knows right?" and switched my view to agnostic. But the more I thought about it, I thought there is a higher probability of no God than there is of a god, so I started identifying as Athiest, though if at any point evidence is shown to the contrary, I would certainly be willing to take that into account.

[vendetta_revived]

I for one never understood the concept of religion, or god for that matter. My parents are devout hindu, do things like wake up and present water to Sun as the giver and nurturer of life, go to the temple every day, but they have never ever expressed any wishes for us (me and my brothers) to do the same things, and neither is religion or god ever a topic of conversation in our home.

And since i never feel as if something I don't believe in is being forced upon me, I haven't felt the need to discuss with my parents that I am an atheist. I was an agnostic till sometime back, but as I started giving more thought to what I should believe in, I began to explore the truth and here I am, definitely an atheist.

I never preach atheism to anyone, nor do I have a problem with anyone who wishes to believe, but I never sway away from a nice, polite, mind boggling debates with people of intelligence with different views than mine and open to discussions. I get pissed at people who insult me on my beliefs and try to act smart - I've been known to mock em forever and ever till they apologise nicely.

[MichaelLCP]

I was born Catholic. We went to church I want to say every Sunday until I was around 8. No reason to stop just did. Just started going again about 5 years ago. I'm in my church band and am also a leader for teens doing confirmation. I'm definitely not a bible thumper who will throw my religion at people. But I definitely know enough to have a conversation about it. I also believe in giving other religions a chance. Who am I to say they are wrong? Right? Even Athiests or Agnostics. You believe what you believe, and if you're my friend I will always support you in what you believe. That's how it goes with all my friends. I'm totally open about hearing about other religions as well. This could be a good thread if it doesn't turn into a debate.

[Chreees]

I know what you mean, Vendetta. Know how I said I was questioned twice so far? Well, both people said I was wrong and one lady told me the proof of God and "Lord Saviour Jesus Christ" is "all around us." I was like, um, yeah, okay... Why is it that Christians seem to be the worst about forcing their beliefs on others? They go apeshit if you tell them you don't believe the same as they do.

Only reason I believe in a higher power is because I feel that someone made this huge world, and it sure wasn't any human. Meant to explain this in my previous post... I guess you could say I'm a man of logic and reasoning.


Tapatalk'd via iPhone

[angekfire]

[quote name='INCUBUSRATM' timestamp='1311341355' post='516891']
I know what you mean, Vendetta. Know how I said I was questioned twice so far? Well, both people said I was wrong and one lady told me the proof of God and "Lord Saviour Jesus Christ" is "all around us." I was like, um, yeah, okay... Why is it that Christians seem to be the worst about forcing their beliefs on others? They go apeshit if you tell them you don't believe the same as they do.[/quote]

I've had a couple friends like that. I got in a debate with a friend who is pentacostal. He was saying "Jesus is the way and the light" and my arguement was "What about Muslims or jews? How do you know they are wrong?" And his response was "Because the bible says so". My counter point was "Every religion's holy book says that, so what makes them wrong" and his answer was "But their books aren't the bible." My girlfriend likes to call it the religion shield. They can beleive in anything because the bible said so with no thought of their own. I don't tell people what to believe, I just want them to think for themselves and decide what they believe based on their own truth.

I had a debate with this same friend's older brother, and he did make some interesting points, and when I asked him questions he was unsure of, rather than saying "The bible tells me so" he told me he was unsure and didn't have the answer, and it was something he would contemplate and discuss with his pastor. I found that debate to actually be enjoyable. I made him think for himself and consider something he hadn't previously considered. That was my goal. Not to convert him.

[jorlyfish]

[quote name='angekfire' timestamp='1311340805' post='516887']
From there, I found more and more evidence of contradiction in the concept of God as a whole. I began to doubt that there was a God at all, though I maintained the belief that "Hey, maybe. Who knows right?" and switched my view to agnostic. But the more I thought about it, I thought there is a higher probability of no God than there is of a god, so I started identifying as Athiest, though if at any point evidence is shown to the contrary, I would certainly be willing to take that into account.
[/quote]

A/theism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. Chris stated he believes there's a higher power/god/whatever you'd like to call it, but also thinks we'll never know for sure one way or another: he's an agnostic theist. I don't personally believe in any higher power/etc., but I agree with him that I don't think we'll ever know: I'm an agnostic atheist (and it sort of sounds like you are, too). Atheism is not merely a stronger form of agnosticism.

[vendetta_revived]

I agree! This could be a great thread if it doesn't turn into a (heated) debate about views. We are all mature enough to have a debate polite enough right? Never hurts to flex your brain muscles a bit.

@Chris: I used to be like that. I was inclined to believe in a higher power without the support of religion as I've been very anti-religion for as long as I can remember and have had very strong views on it. I enjoy talking to people who are open minded about it and offer their own perspective on it, and don't question my morality since I don't believe in god now. As Jordan said before, morality has nothing to do with religion, it comes from within, your peers, your upbringing and your concern towards other people in general. I'd go as far to say that the people who are moral only and only because they believe a higher being is watching them and might smack them for any wrong doings are sociopaths in disguise.

My belief in a higher power kept on shaking further and further as I learned and saw things happening that happen around me. I am in India and don't have a lot of Christians around me, but the few I do are very good people, but every now and then, a christian absolutely blinded by faith comes along and pisses me off! I recently had a conversation with such a person. His stand was that all religions except Christianity are false and the people who believe them and pray to false gods will go to hell, because bible said so.

This person was so blinded about everything, he couldn't see that the only reason he was a Christian was he was born as a Christian, and if he had been born into a muslim family, he would have been a muslim, if he had born in a Hindu family, he'd have been a hindu. Then he went on to tell me that God died for me, and for my sins, and now it is my choice to accept it or not, and it is not imposed on me.

Not imposed? Yeah, you're sitting there telling me again and again that I and million others are bound to go to hell just because I don't believe in your god and the others were not born in the religion, and we deserve to burn forever and ever for that, and it is not imposed?

Hell, I am going to shut up now..I don't want to offend anyone... I am all for being friends with people who have their own beliefs but I can't handle stupid like that. Some people really need to learn to think for themselves.

[Tyler]

Atheist, literally "a theist" meaning a-without theo-God
Agnostic, literally "a gnosis" meaning a-without gnosis-knowledge


A simple atheist believes in no God and no "higher power"

A simple agnostic believes that there's "something" but doesn't know what it is

A theist agnostic beleives there is "God" but not sure about the whos/whats/wheres/whens/whys

A pantheist agnostic believes that the world exists as a higher power and that may or may not be a part of God

A pantheist atheist beleives that the world is the idea of "God"

One cannot be a theistic atheist.

There are other variances as well, implicit and explicit atheism but that takes a while to explain.

It seems to me that most people are adhereing to Pascal's wager in terms of agnosticism....that it is better to err wagering on the side of there being a "God" versus there being nothing simply because even though there might be a God to these people, they can't convince or make proof of the existance.

[vendetta_revived]

No, the basic idea of Pascal's wager was that even though one can't really prove the existence of god, he/she should still believe in him.

Why you ask? Suppose you don't believe in god, and you die, then what? If it just so happens that the god is real, then you are tormented for eternity in hell, and if there is no god, then you will be just dead, nothing more, nothing less, which would be the same fate a believer will face.

It's main premise is that you should believe in god because that way you have nothing to lose, even if you are wrong, where as not believing could turn out ugly.

It's emphasis is more on the result of the existence/non existence of god in relation to your beliefs rather than the process itself.

[angekfire]

[quote name='jorlyfish' timestamp='1311344027' post='516893']
A/theism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. Chris stated he believes there's a higher power/god/whatever you'd like to call it, but also thinks we'll never know for sure one way or another: he's an agnostic theist. I don't personally believe in any higher power/etc., but I agree with him that I don't think we'll ever know: I'm an agnostic atheist (and it sort of sounds like you are, too). Atheism is not merely a stronger form of agnosticism.
[/quote]

See, thats the thing. I believe there is no God, as opposed to "I do not know if there is or isn't, and it is impossible to know." I believe that there is no God, and that is is possible to know, and that if some day we do discover there is a God, very well, but that it is highly improbable, especially in my lifetime, and therefore reserve that there is no God. Until I see evidence to the contrary, which I doubt will be possible.

Humans have used the concept of God to explain things they do not understand since the beginning of time. Look back to ancient religions. Humans believed the Sun and Moon were Gods because they didn't understand it. They believed the Ocean was a God, or there was a God of lightening, and that if you get struck by it, you surely must have done something to anger him. But we now understand how lightning works, and that there is no mysterious God behind it.

I believe nothing is unknowable, but at the same time that it is impossible to know everything. Once we know a sufficient amount I believe we will be able to explain away God with a great degree of certainty, though, if anything is left unknown or unexplained, some people will still attribute it to a higher power.

To quote Arthur C. Clarke, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.", which to me, means anything we don't understand is essentially magic or mysterious, but once we understand it, it is no longer divine. And that given the proper time and research, anything can become known.

[Tyler]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1311346473' post='516898']
No, the basic idea of Pascal's wager was that even though one can't really prove the existence of god, he/she should still believe in him.

Why you ask? Suppose you don't believe in god, and you die, then what? If it just so happens that the god is real, then you are tormented for eternity in hell, and if there is no god, then you will be just dead, nothing more, nothing less, which would be the same fate a believer will face.

It's main premise is that you should believe in god because that way you have nothing to lose, even if you are wrong, where as not believing could turn out ugly.

It's emphasis is more on the result of the existence/non existence of god in relation to your beliefs rather than the process itself.
[/quote]


That's kind of exactly what i said

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1311347952' post='516900']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1311346473' post='516898']
No, the basic idea of Pascal's wager was that even though one can't really prove the existence of god, he/she should still believe in him.

Why you ask? Suppose you don't believe in god, and you die, then what? If it just so happens that the god is real, then you are tormented for eternity in hell, and if there is no god, then you will be just dead, nothing more, nothing less, which would be the same fate a believer will face.

It's main premise is that you should believe in god because that way you have nothing to lose, even if you are wrong, where as not believing could turn out ugly.

It's emphasis is more on the result of the existence/non existence of god in relation to your beliefs rather than the process itself.
[/quote]


That's kind of exactly what i said
[/quote]

Shit! I see it now. I guess drinking beer to kick off the hangover wasn't my brightest idea.

[vendetta_revived]

Sorry for double posting, but if you want to see the kind of people I have a problem with, google "Deborah 13". It's a documentary about a 13 year old girl.

[Dr. B]

[quote name='angekfire' timestamp='1311342345' post='516892']

I've had a couple friends like that. I got in a debate with a friend who is pentacostal. He was saying "Jesus is the way and the light" and my arguement was "What about Muslims or jews? How do you know they are wrong?" And his response was "Because the bible says so". My counter point was "Every religion's holy book says that, so what makes them wrong" and his answer was "But their books aren't the bible." My girlfriend likes to call it the religion shield. They can beleive in anything because the bible said so with no thought of their own. I don't tell people what to believe, I just want them to think for themselves and decide what they believe based on their own truth.
[/quote]

It's not as intuitive as the contrary for you to accept, but there is no definite argumentation that your friend's truths are inferior to yours.

On topic: Raised reform Jewish without any real emphasis on spirituality (mostly just culture), now consider myself modern orthodox.

[Dr. B]

Erm, didn't see the extent of arguing on the first page. Don't wanna be redundant and I don't think I brought anything new up, so ignore me.

Also meant to add in the edit: I'm more conservative than MOs in a few ways, more liberal in others. It's just the label I identify most with, except the political Zionism. I still support Israel though.

[Epoch]

Fantastic to see so many fellow atheists checking in...

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='Epoch' timestamp='1311526400' post='517083']
Fantastic to see so many fellow atheists checking in...
[/quote]


I am so proud of this group. Atheist is cool, but were you raised this way and accept OR come to this belief by yourself?

[Epoch]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1311528730' post='517085']
[quote name='Epoch' timestamp='1311526400' post='517083']
Fantastic to see so many fellow atheists checking in...
[/quote]


I am so proud of this group. Atheist is cool, but were you raised this way and accept OR come to this belief by yourself?
[/quote]

I was raised with non-practicing Christians, so there wasn't very much pressure on me when I came out about it.