Hezbollah Declares War On Israel...

[Snoopy1966]

Yes a proper land division in the land would have been more appropriate for sure in the first place. They did not give the Israel much land and it was not in one spot. On purpose? Could be.

[gaia.plateau]

I just want to say. Britain "created" Israel after WWI. It wasn't an official country at the time, but they supported Zionism as part of their plan for the Middle East after the war. Also, even if the Central Powers had won the war Germany was in support of Zionism, too. Germany included in their post-war plans for their ALLY to allow Jews to settle in Palestine. I think, either way, this was going to happen.

Inaccurate ... Israel as a region has existed for thousands of years... it just wasn't recognized as a sovereign state of the Jews until after WWII. What you're thinking of in 1917 is the Balfour Declaration, which simply announced Britain's support of the Jews getting Israel. There's a bit more backstory here... after the enlightenment period Jews began to face widespread persecution and weren't really welcome anywhere in Europe... Uganda (British colony at the time) offered them asylum in 1903 but they would only accept their holy promised land. Anyway, the Balfour Declaration didn't create Israel, and in fact all it did was piss off a lot of Arabs, especially those in Palestine. This caused Britain to reverse the declaration anyway.

The Brits decided that the whole issue really wasn't worth their trouble and handed it to the UN in 1947, which is when they declared Israel a Jewish state, carving it out of Palestine and displacing tens of thousands of Palestinians who for the past decade have been treated terribly by the Israelites, and even forced to wear signs of their ethnicity on their clothes (sound familiar?).

[gaia.plateau]

but you dont realize that if israel tried to give palestinians more land, which they have tried to do, the palestinians just demand more. also you dont realize that this is a religious war and the palestinians hate the jews for being jewish and therefore want them out of the land. also, it was an israeli (not called that at the time) area before palestine. this goes back way before palestine and many people fail to realize that. they think that it has always been palestine when it reality it hasnt and for the most part we dont know who originally had it.

When has Israel tried to give Palestine more land? Source please, I'm pretty sure this never happened.

I don't think it's fair to characterize only the Palestinian perspective of Israelis as one of hatred, when the Israelis have the Palestinians in concentration camps and cover the streets of both Palestine and Israel with anti-Arab hate speech.

Israel did indeed belong to the Jews originally (in recorded history), and then in 586 BCE the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah fell and they left. North America belonged to the aboriginal indigenous populations... why should we not give it all back to them?

[Johnny_D]

I think part of the problem is how we are referincing time-frames.

For a whole lot of Israeli's they are 3rd/4th even 5th generation Israeli's. Born and bread. So they consider it home.

the problem also exists for those in Palestine - born and bread.

How do you tell someone that they have 'invaded' an area after so many years of family history in place - both sides of the fence? Gaia's reference to the native american is right on the money.

JD

[oolatec]

When has Israel tried to give Palestine more land? Source please, I'm pretty sure this never happened.

They were offered practically 95% of what they were demanding via the Oslo Accords.

But that was all a sham. Now Israel has had no choice but to unilaterally pull out of Gaza. (And look what the Palestinians have done as a response... rocket attacks etc. etc. etc. Same shit, different day)... Israel will eventually pull out of the West Bank as well. It won't make them any safer, and it won't do squat for the "peace" process. Nothing will when a large part of the side you are supposed to reason with doesn't even want you to exist.

The Palestinians really had a chance to help change things in 2006, but they went and elected a terrorist organization to rule them instead.

[Texico]

I just want to say. Britain "created" Israel after WWI. It wasn't an official country at the time, but they supported Zionism as part of their plan for the Middle East after the war. Also, even if the Central Powers had won the war Germany was in support of Zionism, too. Germany included in their post-war plans for their ALLY to allow Jews to settle in Palestine. I think, either way, this was going to happen.

Inaccurate ... Israel as a region has existed for thousands of years... it just wasn't recognized as a sovereign state of the Jews until after WWII. What you're thinking of in 1917 is the Balfour Declaration, which simply announced Britain's support of the Jews getting Israel. There's a bit more backstory here... after the enlightenment period Jews began to face widespread persecution and weren't really welcome anywhere in Europe... Uganda (British colony at the time) offered them asylum in 1903 but they would only accept their holy promised land. Anyway, the Balfour Declaration didn't create Israel, and in fact all it did was piss off a lot of Arabs, especially those in Palestine. This caused Britain to reverse the declaration anyway.

The Brits decided that the whole issue really wasn't worth their trouble and handed it to the UN in 1947, which is when they declared Israel a Jewish state, carving it out of Palestine and displacing tens of thousands of Palestinians who for the past decade have been treated terribly by the Israelites, and even forced to wear signs of their ethnicity on their clothes (sound familiar?).

I know this is sarcasm on your part. I merely generalized, hence the use of the quotations. Obviously you know what I meant or you wouldn't have even posted what you did. What I'm saying is that we should have let Germany win WWI and then they could have supported Zionsim (which they did) and now the Muslims could be mad at them as the supporter of the Jews (sarcasm).

The whole thing's gone to shit. They're fucking themselves over. Both sides are to blame.

Or, if you want, you can blame Enver, Talat, and Djemal Pasha.

The pictures of Israel/Palestine don't really show much of a "promised land" to me though.

[TheScotsman]

We have seen that it is impossible to come up with any form of compromise agreeable to both sides. With the original Mandate for Palestine the UK could never get any Arab support, so they walked away. I can't ever recall any cease fire that was ever honored by the Arab factions. In my view that alone is a deal-breaker. At this point it should be obvious to anyone but a complete idiot that there is no way there will be an "all-or-nothing" victory for either side, pursuing such is only choosing to continue conflict for conflict's sake.

Israel is best to deal with it in the same fashion is they receive. Hamas doesn't fight an honorable open war, but a terrors tic war peeking from behind the skirts of Lebanon. Turn Meir Dagan, and the rest of Mossad loose in an unrestricted war of clandestine assassination, and be done with the terrorist. When they have had enough then they are ready to talk, until then it's a waste of time.

[gaia.plateau]

I wasn't being sarcastic... just trying to elucidate

Britain's endorsement of Israel for the Jews in 1917 wasn't consequential to the Zionists actually getting Israel... though it probably does contribute to anti-Western sentiment among Arabs.

I know this is sarcasm on your part. I merely generalized, hence the use of the quotations. Obviously you know what I meant or you wouldn't have even posted what you did. What I'm saying is that we should have let Germany win WWI and then they could have supported Zionsim (which they did) and now the Muslims could be mad at them as the supporter of the Jews (sarcasm).

The whole thing's gone to shit. They're fucking themselves over. Both sides are to blame.

Or, if you want, you can blame Enver, Talat, and Djemal Pasha.

The pictures of Israel/Palestine don't really show much of a "promised land" to me though.

[Muhammad]

also you dont realize that this is a religious war and the palestinians hate the jews for being jewish and therefore want them out of the land.

Just wanted to add, although religion may be a part of what's going on now, this is no way a religious war, the war would still be going on if both sides were athiest, the Palestine/Israel conflict is more of a political one and obviously religion does come into it but that is NOT the cause of the conflict.

Palestinians don't hate the jews simply because they're jewish, they don't like them because they're watching their own families die for no reason at all, if you look back in history the jews flourished in Muslim Spain and were given the highest ranks in government, the golden age for the jews was under Muslim rule. Before the Muslims came about the jews were not even allowed in Palestine, it was only once Palestine was conqured by the Muslims that they were given entry into Palestine.

Like Snoopy mentioned, what if someone came to your house and stole it and threw you on the streets, the least you would do if you had no weapon available is to pick up a rock and throw it. The Palestinians are going through much worse than that and they're simply fighting back, yes I agree that some of them are fighting back in an unjustifiable way, but think of yourself in that position, how would you react? how would you justify your actions? I'm not saying I agree with what the Palestinians are doing, but I can understand why they are doing it, it's the same way any group or community would react in their circumstance.

This isn't abought religion it's about human beings reacting like human beings, kind of what Islam came to destroy.

[NoPeace]

also you dont realize that this is a religious war and the palestinians hate the jews for being jewish and therefore want them out of the land.

Just wanted to add, although religion may be a part of what's going on now, this is no way a religious war, the war would still be going on if both sides were athiest, the Palestine/Israel conflict is more of a political one and obviously religion does come into it but that is NOT the cause of the conflict.

Palestinians don't hate the jews simply because they're jewish, they don't like them because they're watching their own families die for no reason at all, if you look back in history the jews flourished in Muslim Spain and were given the highest ranks in government, the golden age for the jews was under Muslim rule. Before the Muslims came about the jews were not even allowed in Palestine, it was only once Palestine was conqured by the Muslims that they were given entry into Palestine.

Like Snoopy mentioned, what if someone came to your house and stole it and threw you on the streets, the least you would do if you had no weapon available is to pick up a rock and throw it. The Palestinians are going through much worse than that and they're simply fighting back, yes I agree that some of them are fighting back in an unjustifiable way, but think of yourself in that position, how would you react? how would you justify your actions? I'm not saying I agree with what the Palestinians are doing, but I can understand why they are doing it, it's the same way any group or community would react in their circumstance.

This isn't abought religion it's about human beings reacting like human beings, kind of what Islam came to destroy.

yes but look at it this way too. the jews who had not had a home land for thousands of years and just came out of WWII where they are killed souly for being jewish and when the war is over they are just expected to go back to the way things were and find a job and a new life. They wanted to get their homeland back but realized that they couldnt but still pushed for it. Many countries push to get the jews an established nation that they can call theres and when they do, the jews now have their homeland and everything back to them. For once they have a place they can call home without having to worry about the extreme anti semitism that is going on. They establish a strong economy and offer the palestines the opportunity to own their own land in the area and for the most part integrate into the society so that there would be no need for a segregation of areas. Suddenly the radical palestinians start going "hey we had this land before. those dirty jews dont deserve it lets kick them out and leave nothing for them" now the newly formed jewish government who strongly offered integration so that they could show that they wanted things to be chill between the two seperate factions starts feeling pressured because these palestinians are saying "hey we want our land and we dont want to share it. fuck you all we dont want to be around you, we want you gone and we want this to be a palestinian nation" so they start planting bombs, forming terrorist factions, etc, etc. now what does any government do when there is a strong opposing threat towards the stability of the nation? they provide force against that threat. So they start going at it of course. Then comes 90's when Yitzhak Rabin meets with the leading official fo the palestinian sudo-government and they agree on a peace treaty to end all problems between the two. Then when he dies, the terrorists and the suicide bombers come back out and start attacking israel, while in the mean time the israeli citizens and palestinian (non radical) citizens are still trying to institute peace. So the hezbollah and other palestinian factions start bombing coffee shops, libraries, etc ,etc and the israeli government is faced with the what to do? do they sit there and continue their attempts to acquire peace or fight back against the threat? well of course they fight back. One of the most famous being the attack in Lebanon where lebanese citizens where housing hezbollah leaders and when israel goes in to clear up the hezbollah, they start going "oh look the israelis are attacking us, we did nothing wrong, poor poor us, everyone quick! look at the israelis bombing us and completel ignore what weve been doing to them for the post 10 years!!" Now of course pictures of dead palestinians and lebanese start showing up in order to make them look like this poor helpless group that did nothing wrong. When in reality they had been aiding hezbollah and the other radicals that have been going around killing israeli citizens. at least israel was targetting hezbollah. the palestians, lebanese and hezbollah were attacking ANY israeli citizen because according to them they are all the enemy.

so all this talk about
"what if someone came to your house and stole it and threw you on the streets, the least you would do if you had no weapon available is to pick up a rock and throw it"
applies to the israelis just as much except they dont throw you out on the street, they blow your house up and if that doesnt kill you, you are probably missing limbs or have sever damage and most likely your family is dead.

now i want to address one more thing about israelis throwing ppl out of their houses. now if your the government and you are told "terrorist factions plotting to kill your citizens and most likely you are headquartered in nearby palestinian and lebanese houses by citizens actively supporting it" what would you do? of course you would go in and throw them out of their house in order to keep surveillance on those houses so that no terrorist groups can use them. if they are supporting the enemy then they are for the most part... the enemy and they are lucky they arnt arrested. for the first time since the forming of israel, the israelis have taken military action to stop the killing and what do the palestinians do. they realize they are fucked so they start trying to make themselves look so innocent so that they can cover up what they have been doing and make the israelis look like the bad guys.

Read the Whole thing...

[Muhammad]

yes but look at it this way too. the jews who had not had a home land for thousands of years and just came out of WWII where they are killed souly for being jewish and when the war is over they are just expected to go back to the way things were and find a job and a new life. They wanted to get their homeland back but realized that they couldnt but still pushed for it. Many countries push to get the jews an established nation that they can call theres and when they do, the jews now have their homeland and everything back to them. For once they have a place they can call home without having to worry about the extreme anti semitism that is going on.

I've highlighted a few points above, the things you mentioned their are the cause of this conflict. It's one thing finally being free and claiming your homeland but it's totally different when you're stealing other peoples land! I'm a Muslim who lives in Britain and would consider Britain my home, but it would cause a conflict if Muslims in Britain started claiming land here, which is exactly my point. The Israelis had no right to do this, would you not agree with that?

so all this talk about
"what if someone came to your house and stole it and threw you on the streets, the least you would do if you had no weapon available is to pick up a rock and throw it"
applies to the israelis just as much except they dont throw you out on the street, they blow your house up and if that doesnt kill you, you are probably missing limbs or have sever damage and most likely your family is dead.

Yes, this may be so and all innocent lives lost are tragic obviously but the Palestinians are simply retaliating, I'll repeat that I don't agree with any killings of civilians but I'm simply supporting the lesser of two evils. More Palestinian lives have been lost in this conflict than Israeli lives and by a big margin.

now if your the government and you are told "terrorist factions plotting to kill your citizens and most likely you are headquartered in nearby palestinian and lebanese houses by citizens actively supporting it" what would you do? of course you would go in and throw them out of their house in order to keep surveillance on those houses so that no terrorist groups can use them.

I don't agree, you don't throw someone out their own home for supporting an organisation especially if it's in their own country! Israel is also a terrorist organisation aswell as Bush and his team, you can't simply call Hamas and Hezbollah a terrorist organisation because that's what you hear in the news. Agreed, they commit attrocities but not half as bad as some "democratic" governments do.

Just to let you know, I'm not trying to create an argument with you because I can see your side of the story and how things look from your side, put yourself in a palestinians shoes, try and imagine it's you on the recieving end. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence here or anything because you do make some good points but if you get any time buy a history book.

[NoPeace]

yes but look at it this way too. the jews who had not had a home land for thousands of years and just came out of WWII where they are killed souly for being jewish and when the war is over they are just expected to go back to the way things were and find a job and a new life. They wanted to get their homeland back but realized that they couldnt but still pushed for it. Many countries push to get the jews an established nation that they can call theres and when they do, the jews now have their homeland and everything back to them. For once they have a place they can call home without having to worry about the extreme anti semitism that is going on.

I've highlighted a few points above, the things you mentioned their are the cause of this conflict. It's one thing finally being free and claiming your homeland but it's totally different when you're stealing other peoples land! I'm a Muslim who lives in Britain and would consider Britain my home, but it would cause a conflict if Muslims in Britain started claiming land here, which is exactly my point. The Israelis had no right to do this, would you not agree with that?

so all this talk about
"what if someone came to your house and stole it and threw you on the streets, the least you would do if you had no weapon available is to pick up a rock and throw it"
applies to the israelis just as much except they dont throw you out on the street, they blow your house up and if that doesnt kill you, you are probably missing limbs or have sever damage and most likely your family is dead.

Yes, this may be so and all innocent lives lost are tragic obviously but the Palestinians are simply retaliating, I'll repeat that I don't agree with any killings of civilians but I'm simply supporting the lesser of two evils. More Palestinian lives have been lost in this conflict than Israeli lives and by a big margin.

now if your the government and you are told "terrorist factions plotting to kill your citizens and most likely you are headquartered in nearby palestinian and lebanese houses by citizens actively supporting it" what would you do? of course you would go in and throw them out of their house in order to keep surveillance on those houses so that no terrorist groups can use them.

I don't agree, you don't throw someone out their own home for supporting an organisation especially if it's in their own country! Israel is also a terrorist organisation aswell as Bush and his team, you can't simply call Hamas and Hezbollah a terrorist organisation because that's what you hear in the news. Agreed, they commit attrocities but not half as bad as some "democratic" governments do.

Just to let you know, I'm not trying to create an argument with you because I can see your side of the story and how things look from your side, put yourself in a palestinians shoes, try and imagine it's you on the recieving end. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence here or anything because you do make some good points but if you get any time buy a history book.

i know im not trying to create an arguement either. i do feel that the israelis were entitled to land due to the cercumstances of WWII as well as the palestinians attempt to extinguish the jews from palestine. even tho other countries were doing this at the time, the palestinians had been doing it FAR longer than any other and i think the UN realized that the palestinians were not just following the trend of europe but were rather just simply hating towards jews. Of course the addition of Israel is also a very financial and political benefit for Europe and the US. it has provided a safe haven in the middle east from some of the more radical middle aged practices (such as stoning, etc, etc) occuring in surrounding areas and the beyond belief scary terrorist groups (no im not talking about all the made up shit that bush propogandanizes around the US)

[oolatec]

also you dont realize that this is a religious war and the palestinians hate the jews for being jewish and therefore want them out of the land.

Just wanted to add, although religion may be a part of what's going on now, this is no way a religious war, the war would still be going on if both sides were athiest, the Palestine/Israel conflict is more of a political one and obviously religion does come into it but that is NOT the cause of the conflict.

Palestinians don't hate the jews simply because they're jewish, they don't like them because they're watching their own families die for no reason at all, if you look back in history the jews flourished in Muslim Spain and were given the highest ranks in government, the golden age for the jews was under Muslim rule. Before the Muslims came about the jews were not even allowed in Palestine, it was only once Palestine was conqured by the Muslims that they were given entry into Palestine.

Like Snoopy mentioned, what if someone came to your house and stole it and threw you on the streets, the least you would do if you had no weapon available is to pick up a rock and throw it. The Palestinians are going through much worse than that and they're simply fighting back, yes I agree that some of them are fighting back in an unjustifiable way, but think of yourself in that position, how would you react? how would you justify your actions? I'm not saying I agree with what the Palestinians are doing, but I can understand why they are doing it, it's the same way any group or community would react in their circumstance.

This isn't abought religion it's about human beings reacting like human beings, kind of what Islam came to destroy.

No. It purely a religious war with politics masking the religious gears that keep killing people on both sides.

[TheScotsman]

No. It purely a religious war with politics masking the religious gears that keep killing people on both sides.

Agreed 100%

[oolatec]

Oh... and let's not forget the Muslims/Arabs that were "recruited" by Hitler himself...

And snoopy.... to be fair, I could post a ton of photos of Israeli victims... but I doubt anyone wants to see body parts and flesh strewn about a cafe, bus, etc...

[gaia.plateau]

also you dont realize that this is a religious war and the palestinians hate the jews for being jewish and therefore want them out of the land.

Just wanted to add, although religion may be a part of what's going on now, this is no way a religious war, the war would still be going on if both sides were athiest, the Palestine/Israel conflict is more of a political one and obviously religion does come into it but that is NOT the cause of the conflict.

Palestinians don't hate the jews simply because they're jewish, they don't like them because they're watching their own families die for no reason at all, if you look back in history the jews flourished in Muslim Spain and were given the highest ranks in government, the golden age for the jews was under Muslim rule. Before the Muslims came about the jews were not even allowed in Palestine, it was only once Palestine was conqured by the Muslims that they were given entry into Palestine.

Like Snoopy mentioned, what if someone came to your house and stole it and threw you on the streets, the least you would do if you had no weapon available is to pick up a rock and throw it. The Palestinians are going through much worse than that and they're simply fighting back, yes I agree that some of them are fighting back in an unjustifiable way, but think of yourself in that position, how would you react? how would you justify your actions? I'm not saying I agree with what the Palestinians are doing, but I can understand why they are doing it, it's the same way any group or community would react in their circumstance.

This isn't abought religion it's about human beings reacting like human beings, kind of what Islam came to destroy.

No. It purely a religious war with politics masking the religious gears that keep killing people on both sides.

Are you being sarcastic? It's hard to tell with text.

If you are: that wasn't the most valuable input.

If you're not: what are you basing this on? The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is as much about religion as were the Crusades, the Inquisitions, or the conflict in Ireland between the IRA and the national army. In other words, not at all.

Religion is an excuse for violence, it is almost never a motivation. In the case of Israel-Palestine, it's about politics and socioeconomics, or to put it in simpler terms, survival and conquest. Edited February 20, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[oolatec]

also you dont realize that this is a religious war and the palestinians hate the jews for being jewish and therefore want them out of the land.

Just wanted to add, although religion may be a part of what's going on now, this is no way a religious war, the war would still be going on if both sides were athiest, the Palestine/Israel conflict is more of a political one and obviously religion does come into it but that is NOT the cause of the conflict.

Palestinians don't hate the jews simply because they're jewish, they don't like them because they're watching their own families die for no reason at all, if you look back in history the jews flourished in Muslim Spain and were given the highest ranks in government, the golden age for the jews was under Muslim rule. Before the Muslims came about the jews were not even allowed in Palestine, it was only once Palestine was conqured by the Muslims that they were given entry into Palestine.

Like Snoopy mentioned, what if someone came to your house and stole it and threw you on the streets, the least you would do if you had no weapon available is to pick up a rock and throw it. The Palestinians are going through much worse than that and they're simply fighting back, yes I agree that some of them are fighting back in an unjustifiable way, but think of yourself in that position, how would you react? how would you justify your actions? I'm not saying I agree with what the Palestinians are doing, but I can understand why they are doing it, it's the same way any group or community would react in their circumstance.

This isn't abought religion it's about human beings reacting like human beings, kind of what Islam came to destroy.

No. It purely a religious war with politics masking the religious gears that keep killing people on both sides.

Are you being sarcastic? It's hard to tell with text.

If you are: that wasn't the most valuable input.

If you're not: what are you basing this on? The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is as much about religion as were the Crusades, the Inquisitions, or the conflict in Ireland between the IRA and the national army. In other words, not at all.

Religion is an excuse for violence, it is almost never a motivation. In the case of Israel-Palestine, it's about politics and socioeconomics, or to put it in simpler terms, survival and conquest.

I am totally serious. It's a religious conflict being masked as political. It's all about land. Historic land that has religious significance to both sides.

You should watch footage of Palestinian Authority TV. Nothing in it is political.

[gaia.plateau]

I am totally serious. It's a religious conflict being masked as political. It's all about land. Historic land that has religious significance to both sides.

You should watch footage of Palestinian Authority TV. Nothing in it is political.

You're right that it's mostly about land, and my understanding is that for the individual soldiers, the holiness of the land is the major driving force. For the ones holding their strings, however, meaning the clergy and the governments on both sides, that territory doesn't represent religious sanctity, but geopolitical and economic power.

It's the motivations of the power-wielders and policy makers that matter, not those of the peons and soldiers, and to this end it is a political issue, not a religious one.

It was no different with the Crusades; for the knights and paladins of the Cross, it was about securing glory for God and satisfying righteous indignation against those whom they were told were "savage heathens". The real reason for the Crusades, however, as is now common knowledge, was the acquisition of land from the Saracens for the church. Conversely, the Saracens were only fighting for their homes and their livelihoods.

In Ireland, the IRA protestants fought the Irish national catholics for political reasons (Union-supporters vs Union-protesters), and for economic reasons (the wealthy fighting to maintain and increase their wealth vs the poor fighting for survival and to increase living standards).

In both those cases, it was the popular misunderstanding at the time that they were about religion, but we now understand that religious issues were only excuses for conflict, not motivations. Edited February 21, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[TheScotsman]

In Ireland, the IRA protestants fought the Irish national catholics for political reasons (Union-supporters vs Union-protesters), and for economic reasons (the wealthy fighting to maintain and increase their wealth vs the poor fighting for survival and to increase living standards).

In both those cases, it was the popular misunderstanding at the time that they were about religion, but we now understand that religious issues were only excuses for conflict, not motivations.

The IRA protestants? Hmmm.... I know I am old as dirt, and my memory is a bit funky, but I don't remember ever getting shot at by IRA protestants. I dodged a few rounds, and my sister was wounded by an IRA CATHOLIC though... with an American made m-16, likely supplied by some Hibernian society in NY, Philly, or Boston. I don't see allot of fact in your statement based on the fact some order of Hibernians in Boston would have members with less wealth than a city dweller in Ulster circa 1979.

Every fanatic I met hated the other side, regardless of economic stature, or holdings, solely based on religion. The "troubles" stemmed back to a purely religious cause, called a pope. Do we remember HRH King Henry VIII? Do we remember him wanting to dump a wife? Well, all the trouble in Ireland traces it's roots straight back to the instant the pope said no, and the King said I don't need your permission.

To say it is about wealth vs poor is an oversimplified, socialistic statement, and fails to realize that all too often religion is a crutch for a weak mind. Aye, there is some level of wealth-status-possession causality at the command levels, but for the average Patrick, or Tommy in the field that statement is so wrong it's beyond silly. What made the republic poor? Well, let's see, there was the catholic church preaching the virtues of unsupportable gigantic families, and a system of dividing the land among all the male children, them dying, and wives passing the land to a different family until there was too small of a reserve of usable land for an over-sized family to weather any sort of crop failures.

The average fool-at-the-front is fighting for the sake of religion, only further proving himself a fool.

[oolatec]

You're right that it's mostly about land, and my understanding is that for the individual soldiers, the holiness of the land is the major driving force. For the ones holding their strings, however, meaning the clergy and the governments on both sides, that territory doesn't represent religious sanctity, but geopolitical and economic power.

Really? What geopolitical and economic benefits does the land (ie. Israel/"Palestine") offer the world? There's no oil... gold mines, diamond mines etc. etc. etc. There is nothing of tangible value on that land. It's all about an "It belongs to us" mindset because of religious history.

[gaia.plateau]

You're right that it's mostly about land, and my understanding is that for the individual soldiers, the holiness of the land is the major driving force. For the ones holding their strings, however, meaning the clergy and the governments on both sides, that territory doesn't represent religious sanctity, but geopolitical and economic power.

Really? What geopolitical and economic benefits does the land (ie. Israel/"Palestine") offer the world? There's no oil... gold mines, diamond mines etc. etc. etc. There is nothing of tangible value on that land. It's all about an "It belongs to us" mindset because of religious history.

Firstly... there is a ton of oil in Palestine. But that isn't what it's about. Territory control is power, and money, and it's that simple. Why do you think there was constant war between the Princes of the Middle Ages? Humans are hardwired to seek power, via control over as many fellow humans as possible.

[oolatec]

You're right that it's mostly about land, and my understanding is that for the individual soldiers, the holiness of the land is the major driving force. For the ones holding their strings, however, meaning the clergy and the governments on both sides, that territory doesn't represent religious sanctity, but geopolitical and economic power.

Really? What geopolitical and economic benefits does the land (ie. Israel/"Palestine") offer the world? There's no oil... gold mines, diamond mines etc. etc. etc. There is nothing of tangible value on that land. It's all about an "It belongs to us" mindset because of religious history.

Firstly... there is a ton of oil in Palestine. But that isn't what it's about. Territory control is power, and money, and it's that simple. Why do you think there was constant war between the Princes of the Middle Ages? Humans are hardwired to seek power, via control over as many fellow humans as possible.

Oil in "Palestine"... well, you'd never know that just by looking! Now why don't the Palis spend all their time, effort, and money into tapping into that oil instead of teaching their children hate... that'd just make too much sense.

Hmmm the Middle Ages... again, it all goes back to religion and whose religion was there first. The three largest faiths in the world call that sliver of land their birthplace. That and that alone explains the endless conflict.

[r1v3th3ad]

because they want their land back, its not so much a war over the oil as it is a war over the homeland

[addicted2shisha]

The Jews claimed land on the basis of religious right to be there. Therefore a religious war was inevitable. If the Israelis returned all of the occupied territories (instead of building homes on them after knocking down Palestinian homes) there would still be an issue as some Palestinians are against the complete existence of Jews. I just feel like Israel acts more like a bully then anything else. But this situation will never resolve due to those people who deny the right of Jews to exist.

I must say there is a lot of propaganda out there. On both sides. There was a video released years ago when a father was caught with his child in the middle of some shooting. He waived at the Jewish soldiers to stop shooting for a certain time whilst under cover. He continued to no avail until his child took a bullet and he walked away with him in his arms. That was all caught on camera and shown across the world- that was more truth then propaganda, but the most disturbing thing i'v ever seen in my years.

I have to say my opinion is biased towards the Palestinian cause but a few documentaries shown last year on the shootings of British volunteers and aid workers was shocking. Although i must say Israel did take action against the soldier after pressure from the British government, the extent of which was obviously limited, but a good sign nonetheless.


And in my opinion most of those treaties are boloks! Israel should return all the land they took! You cant kick someone out of his house then offer him his front room and toilet back and keep the rest in return for peace! Edited February 22, 2008 by addicted2shisha

[r1v3th3ad]

opinions on the Holocaust Truth movement?

IMO its just a blow at them. Its a tactical move, if they somehow manage to prove that all of the horrific events did not occur, then Israel loses the grounds as to why they gained that homeland, therefor it would be in right for it to be taken away.

Thoughts....?